Disarming a knife attacker

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Narrue, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    I guess I should clarify my point. From my experience is that the two handed grab is that I see it as a transitional point at best. Anything that prevents the knife from entering you is a good thing. However, the two handed grab is not a place to stay. What I failed to see in ED-209's write-up is mention of getting off of the knife line and getting to the outside of the attack. You can use the two handed grab to shuck to the side and then establish elbow control (which will prevent the knife from reentering).

    However I still contend that maintaining a two hand control for any period is going to bring the knife back onto your center. And that's the result of personal research, testing, and observation.

    If you are going to survive you need to get to the outside and preferably behind the attacker.

    - Matt
     
  2. ED-209

    ED-209 Valued Member

    Hands up, if Dan Inosanto ever decides to attack me with a knife and I don't have an AK47 and a gap of 50 yards, i'm dead

    seriously, i have been shown a lot of different methods for dealing with knife attacks, most are 100% Bull****, especially some of the traditional martial arts methods. How people can teach the block and counter method is beyond me. the two handed grab, knee, butt, bite assault is the only one that works for me in live training. I have proved to myself that when someone tries to stab me all out with a training knife, a lot of the time i can immobilise the hand and fight back without getting stabbed. i feel that if your avarage untrained mugger tried to do this, it is the best defence I HAVE against being killed. People can say to me, 'but you use two hands against one, the opponent can punch you with his free hand'. I don't give a damn, i'm used to being punched, just not stabbed. odds are he'll be thinking of the knife anyway, and now his hand is immobilised prob terrified of what will happen if i can prise the knife out his fingers.

    On occasion, I have trained with very good knife fighters, and I did not have any defence against them, they killed me every time.

    I also do not have a defence against someone with two knives.

    I would try verbal entry, pre emptive strike, run

    My interests lie in boxing, thai boxing and mixed martial arts, but i want to be able to defend myself on the street

    for this reason i have learnt one knife defence technique that works for me, as you never know when it could be needed

    I am no expert though, and I would really appreciate advice from people who know what they are talking about on

    a) how to deal with someone with two knives?
    b) how i can refine my technique to make it better?
    c) how is unarmed knife defence taught in weapons based arts such as escrima and kali? does it work, and if so does it require a very high skill level to pull off? if it does, can it be pulled off under pressure?
     
  3. ED-209

    ED-209 Valued Member

    I do do this, i just dont think about it, its instinctive, so didnt write it down
    i always move away from the knife line as i grab the wrist, and always try for the outside to avoid the other hand. this is not always possible, depending on the position of the opponents body, angle of attack, feints sending you the wrong way etc
    when i have hold of the hand i pull the arm straight and try to use my body against it, pref the back of the elbow for control
    i always keep a solid base and use my body to control my opponents, and set up strikes.
     
  4. Hoimun

    Hoimun Banned Banned

    knife defense.

    I believe Matt is right on that one. Even if you have two hands on the weapon, your just waisting time before he jerks back or shakes you off and continues an assault. You must control the arm holding the knife first.

    This is because you are not applying those techniques correctly. By allowing the traditional martial art to limit you, how can you see their true worth and value as a training tool? Im not an expert either & I only have a white belt in Shaolin kung fu, so this is not completely from experience over many years.

    Things to remember: You have to deal with the knife before you attack or try any extensive defensive maneuvers. Otherwise, you will just bruise or mame a person who is still armed with a deadly weapon! This is done by de-fanging your attacker and disposing of the weapon from reach.

    - I would say the best thing to do is to get a hold of one arm and use it to trap the other. An attacker cannot attack you with his own arm turned on him can he? Once you have trapped his arm, remove the weapons one at a time..

    better not stick with 1 favorite technique unless you have tried it in a real situation and it never fails. Try training as many techniques as you can & do not disreguard traditional martial arts!

    Yes, there is many unarmed knife defenses taught in weapons based arts like kahli & arnis (escrima). In fact, you usually have to learn that before you are given or even trained with a rhattan stick. If I have a shirt on, and an attacker has a knife, I still have a serious advantage.

    This unarmed technique is taught as a hand over fist technique(s)... if you want to learn it find a teacher who instructs Tat Kun Tao Kung fu.... the only other place to learn some of it is from Jun Fan JKD...
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2006
  5. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    The problem is that, from observing others attempting knife defenses, this is typically the first thing to go. I've seen countless examples of people, in the classroom, locking down their position and never getting off line. So I feel that this can never be stated enough.

    Interesting point here. I've never been able to make a staight pull work against someone whose feeding in an aggressive "stab-stab-stab" pattern. I've had luck with a weight drop (downward as oposed to out). So I don't personally trust my ability to successfully staighten an arm without tenderising the body first. Still I do agree that it is possible to off balance them enough to get to the outside and the elbow.

    BTW, what program were you working with?

    - Matt
     
  6. Hoimun

    Hoimun Banned Banned

    are you reffering to jung sinwai (center line theory)???


    The effectiveness on this move depends upon which way you are facing, as well as your range of distance at that specific moment.

    In kung fu, we usually try to control the elbow then we grab/lock/pull the wrist into an arm bar followed by an de-fanging technique..... if you are going to keep your opponents arm on the jung sinwai you need to react quickley or you will likely be pulling yourself into a direct line of attack.
     
  7. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    the scenario is: IF THREATENED WITH A KNIFE which means that THE KNIFE IS IN PLAY!

    besides, if a knifer really wanted to get you, you wouldn't even KNOW that the knife is in play. hell, in reality, you wouldn't even see the knifer coming.
     
  8. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Without getting too far into it or into technique...

    1) Get far away or in close. If you stay at the middle distance where you don't have control of him but he can hurt you you will die.

    2) If possible, have a more authoritative weapon, preferably one that gives you more reach.

    3) Remember that the knife can come high or low and change directions quickly. Cover yourself accordingly.

    4) There are no good places to get cut. There are some really, really bad ones. Make sure that where you get cut is the less bad places like forearms and shins.

    5) A knife is fast and doesn't require much force to hurt you.

    Whatever technique you learn, if it doesn't take these factors into account you probably need to go somewhere else.
     
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    This is why I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, because what is seen in martial arts is only about 10% (tip of the iceberg) of what really is going on. There are factors of positioning, timing, movement, energy, etc. that are often not seen but can only be felt. Some are better at describing things than others, but nothing beats experience in the long run, IMHO.

    None of the methods stated by anyone in this thread are any good without experience with them in the right environment and with the right people to sort out all the hidden factors involved in making it work or not work.

    Thanks for clarifying some of your experiences.

    Same as with one knife only a bit more difficult. I can't tell you what exactly will work for you, but I will say that developing good footwork, timing, and methods for control of the delivery system will be involved.

    Training at different speeds against resistance. Slower speeds to develop better technique, faster speeds to gain experience in fighting.

    Keep an open mind. You mentioned not knowing how people can teach block and counter, well I know of one long time police officer and martial artist that told me he would get in a lot of fights. One time someone came down on him with a knife and he did a rising block just like out of karate and it stopped the knife, he then punched out the attacker. That is how he KNOWS the rising block works, because he used it in a fight, a real life or death fight and it worked. Is it the rising block that is some magic technique? No, it is a good technique given the right situation, but the fact he did it hundreds or maybe thousands of times in his life, working on it so that he had good technique and timing with it, that is why it worked without him thinking about it.

    Worse thing, IMHO, is to drill a technique that is not good over and over again, because then you are bringing into you seated instincts bad habits. Make sure that it is understood why you do what you do and drill it over and over again, make adjustments as you find necessary. I see a lot of NOT beginners use techniques that could be good techniques, but just don't use them right for the situation... I can see why some would say, don't even train those if you don't know when to use it.

    I've been taught that you always should strike with your weapon first, so if knife on knife, my knife is going to touch the wrist of the opponent before my other hand goes for control of the elbow. In unarmed verse knife, it is the same but instead of touching with knife first, it will be with hand or forearm.

    The reason, as I understand, is that if you touch with something other than weapon first, that gives the enemy a moment warning to make adjustments, where as if you strike with weapon first, they get no warning, and you can then follow-up with the control or pinning or destruction of their delivery system.

    I model this to be check/parry their weapon hand and then trap or pin their elbow. In reality it seems that it all happens so fast it appears to be together.

    My personal opinion about FMA is that some of the patterns often used in FMA are much better for weapon on weapon, and to apply it to unarmed verse weapon requires something like jiu-jitsu, Aiki-jitsu/Aikido, or wrestling to fill in the gaps.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2006
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I've had not a lot of success with that either as I'm only a Bruce Lee sized guy (I also do not like that my wrists can be vulnerable to the knife should I not get the grab right). I've had larger people do it to me however. One of the keys, IMHO, to getting it to work is not necessarily getting off the line of attack completely, but to sort of catch the arm before it is fully extended. I guess it would be called intercepting the arm with the grab. After this point, you can turn off the line of attack if you miss the catch to keep from getting impaled. Absolutely need to make sure the knife does not get an open path to cut anything vital... cover with the back of the forearms, etc. as needed.

    Once the grab of the arm (above the wrist to immobilize the hand/knife) is successful, it is very important to have a strong base because there are two main vectors of concern. The first is that the attacker continues to pull and push to try to stab or cut you. Pull in the direction of the attack and follow-up with what you like -- the pulling will hopefully straighten the arm. One of my preferred actions from here is to turn and bring the weapon arm over my shoulder to break the arm. From there I can throw elbows into the attackers rib also. You can also continue and apply Shihonage technique from Aikido.

    The second vector of concern is that the attacker strongly shucks the weapon away. In this case, a strong base needs to stop the attacker from doing this. Once the attacker fails to escape with a good pull, you have a window to straighten the arm... from here I like to go underneath the arm, and apply a hammer lock on the attacker (locking his arm behind his back). For knife, the hammer lock is adjusted so that the attacker cannot easily switch the knife from one hand to the free hand. Also, Sankyo technique from Aikido can be applied instead of the hammerlock.

    The key to this all is that you do not allow your arms to collapse, but you keep them out where you are strong and stable while you move your body to do the pulling and turning. Isolate the knife, immobilize it, neutralize it... use your body/torso/shoulders/arms to apply the pressure on the attacker's elbow, filling in any extra space, while keeping the weapon away from your vitals.

    At least this is how I view it.

    What is missing, IMHO, is the knife defense work against a bent arm. What to do if you can't straighten the arm. I believe you need technique work for both the straight arm and the bent arm situations.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2006
  11. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    The knife is in "play"........too many variables....how can the knife be in play aready if the knifer wasnt aware that the gunner was armed?

    For that matter, surely one can put "in play" any weapon. Is this is what is meant as catching someone off guard?

    For that matter, any weapon would not be seen coming......

    Lets see, put the knife in play and the gunner in play....who comes out on top,....

    You given the "in play" advantage to one particular weapon or person wielding the weapon....

    Heck put the gunner in play and not the knifer.....

    That demo sucked with its variables......
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    When I read the description of the demo, it seemed a re-enactment of the Tueller drill. By re-enactment, I mean it was rehershed or intended to prove a point to the audience of the demo.

    One goal in the Tueller drill is to be able to draw your holstered weapon and fire two shots hitting the target moving at you from 21 feet, all within 1.5 seconds. It isn't easy to do, but it can be done with practice. I've seen some that can get off three, four, and five shots in that time frame all in the target. At some point the mechanics of the gun slow you down, the fastest shooter I've been with actually used a revolver.

    For many real situations, I doubt people even get 21 feet of warning that there is a knife coming at them. If gun is not in hand already, there is very little chance it will be drawn before a knife can get to you, therefore, knife defense training is pretty much a necessity, even when carrying a concealed or holstered weapon.
     
  13. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Sounds like something from the archives of Massad Ayoob



    Yes, I can understand that a holstered weapon has a delay. For that matter a folded knife in the pocket or one sheathed and clipped on a belt also has a delay.


    But the knife is at hand...so what...let it be reverse-the gun at hand first.....the concept seems to be anyone with any weapon can catch another off guard....Case being it is not the weapon, but the user and the timing of who has the ready. Also, seems of a case of "bulldogging". Charging at someone when they are not prepared. It can happen to anyone with or without a weapon-and any weapon.
     
  14. ED-209

    ED-209 Valued Member

    Cheers for the replys
    gotta run off to work
    will answer in full later but here are a few quick thoughts

    when i have the arm held out in two handed grip, if they cannot exchange hands i will sometimes quickly change to one and yank the head back and execute takedown

    more often i will take down by driving against the back of the arm then pin the arm under a knee (v painful on tricep) and ground n pound
    this is how i get the arm straight

    before getting into combat sports, my base is a black belt in goju ryu karate and i have never made a rising block work live against a punch, let alone a knife

    it works in a you stab this way, i block that way scenario though

    I know that escrima had lots of knife defences, but what are they

    and i already know that you need to keep your knife hand forward knife to knife, but what if you havnt got a knife. im more interested in knife defence, not knife fighting.

    thanks again for the replys
     
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The drill is a specific to police training, although it is used for civilians also. Police are trained in the U.S. to identify a threat of a knife at 21 feet as potentially lethal force. In other words, if you have a knife out and are within 21 feet of a police officer, they are trained to shoot you. Obviously there is more to it than that, such as if you are considered a threat or not, or if the officer feels threatened.

    I guess, police train things how they plan to use them in the real world.
     
  16. Angelus

    Angelus Waiting for summer :D

    Snap kick groin and get away.. if you have something you can use... use it. I was attacked with a knife before.. i was lucky that the slash did practically no damage because i was wearing a long sleeve shirt and a hoodie. I was just goin into the video store down the street at night. some punk wanted the stupid dvds and the money i had in the plastic bag i was holding. so basically he swore he was pretty drunk. he pulled a small knife and slashed my arm while a punched his nose. Think he was bleeding ...not exactly sure cuz i ran into the store and notified the manager. I waited a while .. took my time picking a movie. Then took the main steet home instead of the alley shortcut.
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    This would be a good one to train more with someone in Jiu-jitsu or a similar type of training. The pinning of the arm or shoulder under the knee does not work well against someone that is a lot stronger and bigger than you are.

    All they need to do is roll on their side (so that they are facing you) and you will fly off of them. I'm fairly sure this will happen any time you try this on anyone who is say a hundred pounds heavier than you and/or is significantly stronger than you are.

    Rather than pin the arm under the knee, you could try to put your knee/shin into their armpit, then use one hand to apply pressure and control directly to their elbow, the other hand to brace the hand against your shin or knee.

    There is a nice lock and potential submission from there.
     
  18. shootodog

    shootodog restless native


    if the shooter had his pistol out, different story all together. BUT IT WAS NOT!

    the scenario was IF THE ATTACKER HAD A KNIFE AND WAS IN PLAY. CAN A SHOOTER DRAW BEFORE THE KNIFER COULD STAB? the answer is no.

    i appologise ON BEHALF OF PPSA (Philippine Practical Shooters Association) PNP (philippine National Police) AND THE FMA COMMUNITY if the demo sucked.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2006
  19. ptkali778

    ptkali778 Valued Member


    KEY WORD: DEMO

    it is obviously a test whether a knifer can stab a gunner from a set distance, given that the gun is not out, but the knife is. or say 2 guys wondering hey if i have a knife out and you have your gun in the holster, you think i can stab or cut you from a distance? hmn! lets try it out.

    note: fake knife and fake guns in play. no one was seriously hurt during this experiment. this is just a test.
     
  20. Ecks

    Ecks New Member

    sry, been lurking around these forums, but couldn't resist posting here.

    in my experience, I have been threatened with a knife before, and there are a few things I've pretty much hardwired into my brain. I'm only 16, so perhaps some of the things I post may not be very useful, and feel free to criticise that.

    the thing with knife attacks is, judging range is everything. You have to be able to sort of quickly gauge, in those few seconds that the guy pulls his knife out, how fast you can move out of the way. If you're too close to him, you have to know either if you're fast enough to dodge - or fast enough to kick. I'm guessing through what I've seen that most knife threats occur from about 2-5 feet out... so moving out of the way is out of the question unless you're very well trained.

    my point of view is a quick kick to the nuts. it is the safest way, personally. however, the thing with that is, if he has his knife out in front of him and he's turned sideways facing you (kinda like a fencing stance), then you have a problem. i've never had that happen, but in that situation, i'd say go for it. grab the blade with your hands, kick the knife... as long as the knife doesn't hit your body, thigh, or wrists, you shouldn't suffer too much injury. maybe i'm wrong, but in that situation, without any past experience and no other options, that is my course of action.
     

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