Do not attempt to define the terms of the debate like that. Although noone subscribes to the (straw man) idea that a non-sport and sport fight are the same thing, the idea that they have "nothing to do with each other" is equally ridiculous. Don't make me break out the aliveness faqs.
You sound very knowledgable on the subject. Anything you would care to share? No, on seconds thoughts, if you have first hand (excuse the pun) experience you'll have to cope on your own. I don't want to be think of that during my next comp!
Here's another way of looking at it... If you can only beat someone by poking their eyes or biting then how much actual skill at fighting do you have? Personally I prefer to develop the skill to beat someone on the ground using positional dominance, superior wrestling, flow, awareness and non-maiming techniques. That way I always have the back-up of biting or gouging if I need to. Complaining that you can't eye gouge in BJJ is basically admitting that you're very limited as a fighter.
Another way of looking at it is if you limit yourself to rules, you limit yourself as a fighter and the attributes contained therein.
Greetings Dirty tatics WILL WORK against a better grappler 100% true. Now lets look at this a little. No one can fight with a finger in the eye 100% true, but you have to be able to get to the eye effectively and make it count with out being dominated Ok. In order to do that you need some understanding and working knowledge of grappling. So I guy with good defenses should be able to make this work in theory! Good Luck!
Let me give you a real life example of dirty tricks and striking versus grappling. Over twenty years ago I got in a real serious scrap with a guy who was a 3rd Dan in Kempo (I am not degrading Kempo here bye the way). I had a 1st Dan in traditional jiu-jitsu. Since this occurred during military training we both had military uniforms, combat boot and web gear. Fortunately there were no knives. So it starts quickly a kick or two thrown by each then flurries of punches and we closed to a clinch. I threw him with an osoto gari but ended up landing on top of him in what I now would call side control. His first move was to try to gouge my eyes with his left hand. I turned my head to the right to avoid the gouge and reached over with my left hand an hooked my left index and long fingers in his nostrils, pulled his head back and then punched him in the throat. The fight was now over Lessons learned for me are that dirty tricks can work but good postiion is needed to take advantage of it. I had dominant position he didnt. Another lesson is that when people fight they tend to close and grapple. Also when people grapple the more experienced grappler tends to dominate. So for me the issue of grappling is not locks and chokes versus "dirty tricks" the issue is achieving and maintaing dominant position whether it is standing or on the ground.
I think by "dirty tricks vs grappling" it is assumed that both exponents are equally skilled. This discussion seems sto assume that the "dirty tricks" guy is unskilled and the groundfighting guy is skilled. BTW - you punched someone in the throat? You're lucky you didn't kill him. Especially after you stretched his throat out first by tilting his head back. I would never punch someone in the throat unless I was really really desperate. That is definitely a dirty tactic IMHO and you're lucky you're not in jail TBH. Edit - or was it more a tap than a punch? Ws this a domestic squabble rather than self defence?
I would consider anyone trying to gouge my eye out as a very serious attack. As such thats why I replied with such a technique. If you escalate an attack by "dirty methods" dont be surprised by a response in kind. Thats a lesson that many "dirty fighting" proponents forget.
a quick anecdote... a ninja w/ 20 years of experience has recently joined our bjj club. on wednesday the instructor was teaching the arm-triangle from the scarf-hold to which the ninja retorted, "that position is good for sport. i wouldn't do that in combat. i could grab the groin and poke eyes." the instructor then cordially said, "ok. show me what you would do." they commenced their demo. the ninja tapped to the arm-triangle choke.
Most of the time, groundfighters dominate positioning on the ground. It's extremely advantageous to have training and experience in groundfighting to get into the positions to apply dirty techniques, such as eye gouging. Plus, an experienced groundfighter will be well prepared to prevent their opponent from reaching a position where they can apply said techniques. Furthermore, the groundfighter can have practical experience through fully resisting sparring, whereas the person skilled in dirty fighting will not have had the benefit of fully resisting sparring training.
I see your point in principle, although it's not good to assume that "the person skilled in dirty fighting will not have had the benefit of fully resisting sparring training." How do you know this?
Ah, well that comes down to my definition of fully resisting. When I think "fully resisting" I think that the techniques which can be used can be applied by your opponent without hesitation or concern over your health. In order to train against a fully resisting opponent, a dirty fighter would have to be willing to risk losing his/her eyesight, reproductive capacity, etc. Even training with goggles would not be the same because applying the technique while someone was wearing goggles would not have the same effect as it would if you were genuinely mauling the other person. Where as by comparison, ground fighting can be trained fully resisting because it's a bit like chess. Once you've caught your opponent in your trap (either a secured lock or a secured choke), there's pretty much no way they can escape and they'll only injure themselves if they try (I've seen that happen before). Therefore, breaking the limb or choking the person into unconsciousness is fortunately unnecessary. This is the advantage that a pure grappler would have over a pure dirty fighter.
Don't you think that perhaps some of these "dirty fighters" may have "trained" their particular techniques in real fights rather than sparring? How much more "fully resistant" can you get? But that contradicts your previous comment. Why not get into the position where the "dirty trick" can be applied in the same way as "breaking the limb" or "choking the person". You don't have to do it to the extreme, you'll still know when you are in a position to apply it? The two terms aren't mutually exclusive though.
"Lessons learned for me are that dirty tricks can work but good postiion is needed to take advantage of it (unless you're really lucky. a stray finger in the eye could end a fight from anywhere). I had dominant position he didnt. Another lesson is that when people fight they tend to close and grapple. Also when people grapple the more experienced grappler tends to dominate. So for me the issue of grappling is not locks and chokes versus "dirty tricks" the issue is achieving and maintaing dominant position whether it is standing or on the ground." Connovar has eye gouged the correct there (i've added a caveat in italics). I honestly can't see how anyone could argue with what he's said there.
Unless you got into a fight each week and gouged someone's eyes out weekly, you could not manage to train dirty fighting fully resistant as much as you could train grappling. If a person was getting into these fights, it would not last long before the police caught up with them. Because part of the purpose of dirty fighting is to produce a response in the person you use them on. For example, gouging someone's eyes out is going to cause a lot of pain and it will also blind your opponent. Following this, you have a significant advantage. However, if you use goggles and don't go the whole way in sparring, your opponent will not be blinded or in pain. The effects of the techniques will be entirely different and no amount of acting or compliance is going to make up for that. Dirty fighting is about disabling your opponent and using pain compliance. Hence sparring without going the whole way will not simulate the real deal, and therefore is not a good predictor of how the techniques will be applied in an actual fight. You cannot gauge its effectiveness on a per-person basis and, for example, you may overestimate the effectiveness of your eye gouge in training, which could be detrimental in a real fight. Furthermore, grappling techniques usually have the aim of disabling a limb or rendering unconscious, whereas dirty fighting focuses on pain compliance, discouraging your opponent from continuing and temporarily or permanently disabling their senses. Grappling techniques are an end in themselves, where as dirty fighting techniques tend to be a means to an end, assisting you in getting to the point where you can completely disable your opponent by KO or otherwise. Also, as I said before, it requires grappling skill to gain the position to apply these techniques. If you can get a back mount, you can apply dirty techniques to your heart's content and there's nothing the other guy can do. However, actually getting a back mount is difficult and a person who's trained in ground fighting is more likely to be able to achieve that position. Hence, the grappler will in fact be better able to apply dirty fighting on the ground than someone with no groundfighting training or experience. Just for the record, I would not recommend even trying to use dirty fighting in sparring. Keep that stuff for extreme self defense situations. Agreed, dirty tricks encompass both striking and grappling techniques.
by comparison a triangle choke would take more energy and it only works if they dont just keep stamping on you.
I think poking someone in the eye would take at least an equal amount of energy if someone is stamping on you.
to do a triangle choke at some point you are on the floor. but if you can just poke them in the eyes they become completly defenceless
