Dim Mak & Pressure Points (plagarized)

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by jroe52, Apr 28, 2004.

  1. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    You mean if I body hook someone hard in the ribs they won't be able to punch me back as effectively?

    Wow! Revelation! :D
  2. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    yoda thats not what i meant in any means. i can simply put my fingers gently pressed against the point, making your arms reletivly useless (in a passive mannor). in a combat situation, striking the same point with finger strikes or what we practice (chain punches) it numbs the area, giving the same effect.

    if you don't punch this point, you don't immobilize their arms or reduce their power in them, so hitting randomly in the ribbs would not deliver the same effect.

    yes its damaging, but if your not hitting hte points your are not resceiving there benefits. plus it goes much beyond this (people with chi strikes ect which i don't have much experience in that). i don't care if people disbelieve some of the simpler strikeing targets like the one i am explaning, it is effective, you can demonstrate it, and it works.
  3. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Sorry - I don't buy that. I especially don't buy the notion of pulling it off against Mr Angry trying to pull my head off.
  4. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Whilst I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the 'Fraud' statement-as I have no direct knowledge of whether he is a fraud or not and therefore can't make a judgement either way.....

    I will point out at this juncture that in his Younger days, Erle Montaigue was an avid wrestler (In fact he was a Professional Wrestler for a few years in Australia) and in the curriculum of the WBTA (his organisation), there is alot of Catch/ Greco-Roman wrestling technique mixed in with the Tai Chi Chu'an that he teaches.

    So he's hardly against or anti-grappling, in fact I still have a number of articles from the now defunct 'Fighting Arts International' of Erle Montaigue demonstrating Sleepers, BackBreakers, Pile-drivers, Arm Bars, Strangler Locks etc etc (Circa 1990?).

    A friend of mine that is a far more accomplished grappler than I am, says that Erle Montaigue's Grappling seminars are a hoot and very useful (Yes he does a 'Use of Grappling'/ 'Countering Holds' etc seminar). And that Montaigue can do all that stuff for real. I have no reason to disbelieve my friend.

    Maybe Montaigue's reasons for refusing to Fight a 'Grappler', is because he can't be bothered or he's getting on a bit and can't be arsed rolling around with some sweaty neophyte???? I mean if somebody challenged me, I'd tell them to go home, I couldn't be bothered with it either and I'm half Montaigue's age...?

    Whether Dim Mak exists or not, I don't know and I've been of the same opinion for a long time. His 'Encyclopedia of Dim Mak' (Paladin Press) is an amazing book, if purely for the detailed layers of information/ indications/contra-indications/ accupuncture etc in it-whether any of it is true, practical, workable-I don't know.

    Whether it is real or applicable within a real situation etc not I don't know, but I'm always interested in hearing more from people who know more about it than I do (Kwan Jang?).
  5. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    hmm yoda, this is the method i have seen and used in class.

    1.touch your right boob (its fun!) okay, from your nipple looking down, move about 2.5-3.5" to the right (or on the other side, from the left go 2.5-3.5" to the left)... pressing somewhat firm, do you feel the sore spot when you come across the pressure point?

    2.now as a test, have a student or friend hold out their arms like a letter T or in a way that you can push down on them, and they can push up. obviously if you way 300 or are very strong and do this on someone very weak it might not work for over powering reasons. but , push down (pick one arm), notice how the person can resist you? notice how it is hard for you to push them down while they resist and often not move at all!?

    3. now place two fingers on their sore spot for that arm you want to push down. for instance, if its the left arm do that sides pressure point. ask them if they feel the "ouch" or sensitive spot, then you know your in the right location. now, push down on the top of their arm or however you want too and notice that there is no or little resistance?

    okay, so what? well in application if you strike this spot, the soreness stopes the high functionality of the pressure point, miridian system, nerves, chi or whatever you want to call it. in wing chun we do chain punches, so you might get 3-4 punches in on this spot causing much pain in the area. furthermore the pain will extend to that arm, making it rather weaker or unable to support (giving little resistance). i also want to note, its not perment damage from this. bruising/swelling might create temporary inefficiencies in the pressure points function for sometime, but if only 3-4 normal punches it might only have very short term effects (less then a minute or even 10 seconds).

    so this is something to consider, is this dim mak? maybe. if not it is using similiar ideas (to use pressure points to your advantage as targets for striking). not all pressure points will give great results. im sure if you reduce someones sexual vigor in combat by supressing a pressure point, you won't notice a big difference haha.

    found another link that might be a good read: http://www.dimmakworld.com/articles_insight.htm
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2004
  6. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    Dimmak is excellent as well as being real. Ignorance doesn't make it go away, folks. My respect goes to those with the mental capacity to understand it and physical strength to make it work.

  7. wcrevdonner

    wcrevdonner Valued Member

    Has anyone here ever been punched, and you've said to yourself, 'Ooh, that really hurts, he hit me right on the button.'
    Maybe the 'button' is a pressure point? And although might not stop an assailant, will definitely put him off his/her stride...

    I've seen people become revived from someone pressing on a point, (shiatsu), but never being knocked out though.

    Jroe, careful with your application - the spot your thinking of, (or in fact the area I think) is the 'spare ribs' area, the ribs that don't really have any muscle over them, so are a good place to strike in general for any MAist.

    However, you can't chain punch that area simply because someone will not hold their arm up for you long enough to chain punch them there; (They won't hold it up at all unless you get them with good timing!)
  8. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    well here is a quote from grandmaster william cheung (from atraditional wing chun school). first i'd like to say he is a expert on pressure point therapy, in developing systems for healing from massaging the points, increasing chi flow, ect. he is a very good source and his schools can be found...

    anyways here is a quote from his book "how to develop chi power".

    "the deadth touch, or dim mak, is a specialized technique requiring the striking of particularly vital pressure point at a certain time of the day and season. this deadly art was developed by the highly skilled kf practitioners through the centuries, and is based on this relationship between the vital pressure points, the various organs, an chi.
    because the wing chun style was developed by a woman, the emphasis on the efficiency of the strike, and the dim mak is one of its secret specialities. nevertheless, alot of the trainintg is devoted to healing the victims of the death touch with the use of different combinations, herbal formuals, and pressure-point massage....

    shew his book doesn't really get into dim mak other then showing the organ table (what organs are most vulnerable at what hours and their counterparts). it also covers the first wing chun form, some chi excersizes (A breathing and pressure point massagE), and some info on basic chi. its a interesting book. i posted this because william cheung is our grandmaster and amazing source of wing chun knowledge. i don't think he would want to be lying to his students when teaching dim mak as targets for strikes. i do not care if you believe or do not (maybe i'll be like the shou shu guys), but it is effective and it works because chi exhists throughout our bodies.
  9. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Jroe, just to be sure, Erle published the article that talked about Wing Chun and Dim Mak (the one at the top of the thread)? Can you provide a link to that one?

    I don't know the current background of Erle not taking grappling challenges. As SoKKlab put it, I do know he used to grapple. In fact a lot of the BaGua and Tai Chi he teaches heavily features grappling. He might be at a point in life where he isn't taking challenges, but I'm suprised he doesn't have a student who handles those. Some people in Erle's line are on MAP. Hopefully one of them might be able to fill us in better.

    As far as is he a fraud/isn't he... I haven't met the man or worked with him. However a martial artist I know and hold in high respect is one of Erle's distance students. He feels Erle's stuff is good. He used Erle's techniques on me (from the Ba Gua forms) and they've worked. Was it Chi? Or was it exploiting western medicine knowledge? Can't say. The technique worked though.

    - matt
  10. wcrevdonner

    wcrevdonner Valued Member

    You have to use 5 ounces of common sense with every ounce of 'Wing Chun literature.' I am not disrespecting your grandmaster, nor any other WC grandmaster/master/sifu, but there has been a lot of hot air and puffing within the wc community. (And a lot in the Kung Fu community full stop.)
    Thankfully it seems to be coming to a stop, and we can all finally work together to achieve unity...however, some WC literature was put out there simply as a marketing tool during these troubled times - Im not saying this information is, but just be careful.
  11. dustIn credible

    dustIn credible Valued Member

    I think ive stated this here before but will state again. The only medical condition that can cause instantanous death is called Commotis Cordis. It is the time it takes your heart to repolarized between beats. There is only 2 reported cases I have ever read about. Timing and striking someone between beats is impossible. It is too fast around 20-40mcs, time it takes the average eye to blink once is around 40-60mcs. Fast huh

    Yoda on your rib shot, if you hit them hard enough to break a rib, you have about a 30% chance of that rib breaking off and puncturing a lung. That could cause death if not treated but not instant death. If you hit the Xiphoid Process (hanging piece of bone on the distal end of the sterum) that will cause a punctured lung no if ands or butts about it.

    As far as nervous system pressure points goes that could be done. Vagus nerve runs down the abdominal wall so pressure on that could cause organ failure over TIME not instantly.

    i believe that Dim mak is real. Chi (i believe chi is soul in english but thats my opinion) can be explained medically is the bioelectric/thermal energy your body puts off when your muscles move. This energy goes in cycles, from the brain down the spinal cord to the organ/muscle/ whatever. If this path is interupted things can happen. The target organ/muscle can be over stimulated or understimulated cause failure or over excertion. If you dont think bioelectric can be changed or manipulated, put your finger in a light socket. The only reason you get shocked is because your body conducts electricty and the bioelectric signals of the neurons are being interupted so your brain tells you pain stop what your doing so we can return to normal function.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2004
  12. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    This phenomina is related to a suprising frequent cause of death in lacross players and other projectile based sports. There are a few cases in the last few years where Lacross players have been struck by a ball in the chest plate and collapse (their hearts stopping on the spot). We had one here in Rochester within the last five years (I also think there was one down the road in Ithica recently see http://www.theithacajournal.com/news/stories/20040320/localnews/115526.html). In just about every case witnesses have stated that the ball was travelling at what seemed like a normal pace. These death have led to a push by associations to make it manditory for automatic/guided ressusitication paddles to be available on the sidelines at all times.

    I've often wondered if this type of phenominon is linked to ideas about Dim Mak. What I mean is that the player was stroked with a hit that managed to transfer through chest protection and caused a disruption to the heart.

    - Matt
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2004
  13. wcrevdonner

    wcrevdonner Valued Member

    I like your description of chi Katsu, (hope you don't mind me addressing you as that,) thats how I think a lot of the scientific MAists believe about chi; I think there is something about magnetic resonance as well, but Im not going into that here...

    by the way, when you say in between beats, Im assuming you mean the boom-boom heartbeat (ie one beat as it were), and interupting that, as opposed to interupting a two consecutive heartbeats. Hope thats not too confusing...
  14. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    matt, that phenomenon along with kids in getting hit with baseballs in areas and instantly going into shock or dieng, is often explained with pressure points causing failure to the organs or what not. i think it is a somewhat accurate explanation, which makes me think... if it is a phenomanon, then death touches are also very very very freaking hard or a phenomonon as well.

    my arugment, is that pressure point fighting is EFFECTIVE not "a one hit kill art". i'm not saying that death touches are easy to train or even exist, but what i am saying is that using pressure point strikes to whatever effect you believe (chi disruption, organ failure, weakness ect) DOES EXHIST and does WORK. if you don't believe me, have someone do some pressure point fighting on you and you will say owwwww, or cave in from little effort from your attacker.

    for example there is a pressure point on the inside of your arm... the inside of your elbow (not outside, so the part with the crease) on that crease, about one inch from an edge is a pressure point. if you do a jut sao or a grab on this spot it often renders that arm useless because of the PAIN that jerks down the arm. there is a similiar point... go from your wrist on the back of your forearm (outside) go nine fingers up... (take your 3 fingers and measure them like rail road tracks 3, then 3, then 3, and at that area press around firmly to find the pain area)... here when you do your grabs in wing chun you can also make their arm rather painful and useless.

    now, i don't really care if someone says "OH GOSH IF I HIT YOU AHNYWHERE ITS GOING TO CAUSE MAD DAMAGE CUZ I ROXXOR" or the arugment "if i pinched anywhere on your arm you would get hte same effect". it is not true. sure you might be mike tyson and have very good results no matter where you strike, yet if you take advantage of these points you can be very effective without the massive power. so, when you do your arm grab, press firmly with your thumb or wherever you can put pressure on these two spots (one or the other) and you have an advantage. YOU WILL NOT GET THE SAME RESULTS NOT PRESSING ON THESE AREAS! so the belief that "oh if i put iron grip on any part of you, you will be rendered useless"... not in practicaly, but 100% of the time you will have better chances to cause more pain.

    so what am i trying to say? dim mak are deadly attacks, but not death causing themselve (or very difficult and not worth training in functionality). i like how our wing chun school uses these to our advantage, without them we are still effective, but with them you gain advantages. try them out before you knock them! if you belong to a cheung lineage, ask your sifu to learn more about these 3 i mentioned. i do not know of other schools in wing chun, so i don't have experience if they train them too... but i am sure they do what not.

    lastly, i agree some schools including wing chun years ago really did talk about their arts to gain pride, prestige, $$$, and what not. i hope these things are a part of the past, i would rather see wing chun add ground work then bull crap and that goes with other arts as well.

    hopefully i haven't been talking everyones ears off about this hehe
  15. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    i have been reading a very intersting "dim mak encyclopedia" i got off of shareaza, its 800kb so i can't postit. i love how they outline each point, its uses, and its benefits. the bad part, is that it over estimates each point. every point in this encyclopedia is "deadly or sends person into shock" when in actuality we use some of these strikes without lethality hehe. maybe if the season, time, person, and you use a chi strike but in practicality i would rather people know 10-20 key spots to hit every time, then 500 they can use once in a while.
  16. dustIn credible

    dustIn credible Valued Member

    Thanks WC i apprechiate it and Katsu is fine thanks
  17. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    so did anyone try the excersizes i tried to describe? if not, don't knock it before you try it (not marijuana for once when i say that).
  18. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    herm, i find it odd that alot of people here critisize dim mak, yet don't take the time to test some simple excersizes. so the point again comes, how can any of us properly critisize something we do not try to emulate or perform ourselves?

    i would try the simple excersize of striking or applying force to the pressure point near the breast. it is about 1/2 inch below the nipple and 2 inches to the outside (right on the right side and left on the left side).

    to make it really simple, find a partner and have them hold their arms out in a letter T. tell them to resist you pushing them down. take one arm, and try to push them down , they should be able to resist relativly easy unless you try jumping on them or seriously out force them. now, apply two fingers (to better find the spot) to the area i described.. once you get good you can use one finger, a fist, whatever and then push down on their arm. vola, the resistance is gone.

    how do we make this applicable? i'll state it again. using such spots as guides to striking temporarily immobilizes the opponent or some illing effect. this spot causes the arm to be weak if done simotaniously. if you apply the wing chun chain punch, you can open a window of time caused by the numbness to this area. 3-4 strikes and they only use one arm to hit you in defense.

    now if i only new more then a few spots to strike:)

    1. immobilization or weakening in use of arm
    2. intensity of pain is increased
    3. target for striking
    4. much greater effect in shorter time (less required effort to do more)

    a sequence in class we do that is nice against round punches (the type that people dramaticly throw), is

    example from left side defense against their right punch (your left)

    1. slightly turn and defend with a tan sao (left if its a punch coming from your left (their right))
    2. turn the other way and align your centerline to their pressure point
    3. chain punch

    for fast or advance users in theory from here you could
    4. take your right arm and use your back hand to brush their arm and move it towards their stomach (i forget the name of this move, in short you take your arm and kind of swipe the shoulder, down to the tricep area, then push it back inwards across their chest to expose their ribcage from the outside)

    5. before letting go of the sweep, do a lap sao? and grab their forarm, (then perform one of the below)
    A. then palm strike their elbow
    B. either chainstrike the pressurepoint
    C. palm strike the pressure point
    D. take your left elbow and punch it into the back of their shoulder socket

    whoa! i can't believe i remeber this from a excersize our sifu had us do 6 months ago hehe.
    Last edited: May 10, 2004
  19. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    dooo dooooo dooo anyone try the stuff i breathed out my fingers for you?
  20. jimmytofu

    jimmytofu A majority of one

    So you can locate pressure points from the comfort of your home. What about trying to hit a point in the randomness of a fight?
    I'm not suggesting it's impossible, I'd just prefer to focus on hitting larger / general targets.

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