Dim Mak & Pressure Points (plagarized)

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by jroe52, Apr 28, 2004.

  1. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    found this interesting info on wing chun dim mak, if anyone wants to read about it...

    Dim Mak & Pressure Points
    Shaolin Jee Shin Wing Chun Kung Fu is a Dim Mak system. The system is renowned for not employing brute strength or force against force. A practitioner will prefer to attack the soft targets (pressure points) rather than using brute force to stop an opponent. When the Manchus invaded China in 1644, the monks developed Wing Chun to kill their enemy. Initially, Bil Gee Dim Mak, Butterfly swords and dart knives were employed to dispose of their enemy, quickly and efficiently.

    One of the most important fundamental principles of Wing Chun is to guard the Center Line. Centre Line theory is one of our major principles, The Center Line protection of Shaolin Wing Chun Kung Fu is of utmost importance. From the illustration, one can observe the pressure points lying along the Center Line. There are various susceptible pressure points in the arms, legs and back of torso and head that are also employed in Dim Mak self protection. It is not only used to gain the straight line attack and the shortest distance of travel, but also employed to protect our major striking targets along the Centre Line. Also, attacking along the Centre Line will automatically direct your strikes to your opponent's pressure points.

    As one becomes learned with Dim Mak knowledge, he or she must also develop a thorough knowledge of revival techniques and antidotes. If a person has studied acupuncture or acupressure, he or she will have comprehensive knowledge on pressure point locations. Understanding the 5 phases of nature, cosmology, (your relationship with the 5 seasons and the characteristics of each season), and Internal Organ relationship with the 24 hour cycle, will be of major significance in understanding Dim Mak striking.
    The prospective practitioners of this ancient secret must also bear in mind that the mastery of these techniques is only possible through long hours of hard training with patience, study and perseverance.
     
  2. jimmytofu

    jimmytofu A majority of one

    The illustration, or a link to the relevant page would be useful ;)
     
  3. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Ignoring the issue of pressure points and the obvious cultish lure of "ancient secrets" - The above historical reference looks very suspect.
     
  4. khafra

    khafra New Member

    Plus the fact that the Manchus didn't really get disposed off all that well.
     
  5. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    Almost all dim mak points aren't on the centreline :D
     
  6. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    It does!

    Especially the 1644 date. My understanding is that Wing Chun wouldn't be formalized as a system until a number of decades after that. Bil Gee isn't used for Dim Mak strikes. And as someone has already suggested, the majority of Chinese Acupuncture points don't occur on the center like (or at least not in the front of the body on the centerline).

    - Matt
     
  7. dustIn credible

    dustIn credible Valued Member

    I think I have seen the website jroe52 is referring to. It has a diagram of different times of the day with different organs for each couple of hours. Says "strike these at this time of the day" which it says nothing on where to strike or anything else. It was on a shoalin mcdojo website promoting their school for future "suckers".
     
  8. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    yarg, i typed alot and my computer rebooted so i will try again.

    first i would say try using www.shareaza.com or edonkey to find these dim mak pdf files. the names i have are..

    Erle Montaigue's Dim Mak Point Location
    2_Wing Chun History-dim mak

    then do dim mak as a lone search.

    first i would like to say, before criticisim and what not. i'm not saying these are facts or what not, just very interesting things to consider. i remeber a conversation with my sifu once about dim mak and the strikes. are they a part of wing chun? no. are they a part that the wing chun master/grand masters know or once knew? maybe. what i do know, is they are very complex. you need advance knowledge of yin/yang, pressure points, and chi. it gets even more complex because i remeber from the conversation we had that the dim mak depended on season, time, sex, health, ect then you had to know how to do such strikes.

    after searching quick on google i found one of the articles for you that i can refer you to with pictures. in short this site says "Dim Mak means using Fa jing to hit acupuncture points."

    http://www.tai-chi-chuan.demon.co.uk/Dimmak.pdf
    http://www.tai-chi-chuan.demon.co.uk/old_yang.html
    http://www.tai-chi-chuan.demon.co.uk/longterm.html

    a video on fa jing: http://www.tai-chi-chuan.demon.co.uk/67.wmv

    so, in conclusion... first i'd say i haven't had time to read the articles yet. though i think this is what i will say. "dim mak" is not just death touches. it is the art of using pressure points as a way of fighting. using pressure point strikes gives you an advantage because they have increased damage or instability effects. in our wing chun class, we often target several pressure points, thus we are using dim mak. or is it fa jing? either way, very interesting articles i hope to read tonight at work.

    so maybe dim mak, is a general term... "deadly strikes" not "all death strikes"... which means "more agressive or effective" strikes, not nescesarily "every dim mak strike will kill you". maybe there are some that do! but i don't think every dim mak is designed to kill. this is my opinion:)
     
  9. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    But Jroe, that first article wasn't one of Erle's was it?

    Erle's material is good. You should also check out his website http://www.taichiworld.com

    He's contriversial, but if you're serious about learning about Dim Mak, he's a great source!

    - matt
     
  10. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    the one article is erles... the one i copied yes.

    i am looking for more from other sources which i wil in a few days. my point wasn't about "erles dim mak" just to bring up something for self contemplation on the subject.
     
  11. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    i re-looked at my articles, it is from a wing chun document, not erles.

    so use www.shareaza.com and do a search for the wing chun document.

    Wing Chun History-dim mak
    and try searching
    Dim Mak

    those two searches might find you the same document!
     
  12. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    k, i'm uploading the document in chunks... here is i think section 1, maybe its out of order...
     

    Attached Files:

  13. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    yeap...
     

    Attached Files:

  14. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    this is the one with the info...
     

    Attached Files:

  15. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    i haven't had time to read this article either, but i will post it... i had to cut it to fit the 100kb limit so i will paste what i cut here... this is the intro, so start here before reading the document...


    How Chi is used in Dim Mak Pressure Point Defence
    By Grandmaster Dr Pier Tsui-Po

    Chi is a Chinese word that is better not translated into English because no English word can accurately describe its meaning. In modern mandarin pin yin spelling, it is spelt as Qi. Japanese culture calls it “Ki” and Indian culture “prana”. Irrespective how the word Chi is written, its meaning and essence is similar across cultures.
    Dim Mak is a martial art of Chinese origin therefore it is best to give descriptions based on Chinese culture. That way, accuracy and authenticity can be guaranteed. Chi exists on Earth, in Heaven and in humans. On Earth, the manifestation and presence of Chi are extended throughout various forms, such as in plants, water, air, or even in animals. In Heaven (the Universe) Chi takes on different forms; where stars and planets such as the Sun, Moon and others exert their influence on us and also on everything else in the universe. In humans, the body is not only reliant on the integrity of its own Chi flow, but also on the dynamic interplay of both Heaven and Earth Chi.
    Chi is the vital life force energy that makes birth possible, hence life. Injury to Chi leads to illness and ultimately death since good health requires Chi to flow freely and smoothly throughout the entire mind and body. Chi is THE ingredient that is absolute in sustaining life. It plays an important role in all matters of life, such as good health, happiness, disease, and death. This means that Chi is not only the ingredient that promotes life and death, but it also participates in their formation.
    In the martial and healing arts, Chi is recognised by what it does, rather than what it is. I'll explain this further with an example. Let's consider an intriguing mystery that concerns blood circulation in the human body. You know that death follows if blood does not return back to the heart. So let me ask you this question: What is it that makes blood return to the heart, in an average adult over a height of more than five feet, against the force of gravity, and with no apparent motive force?
    We cannot say that it is because blood has nowhere else to go after leaving the heart. If we do, it would be like saying the earth revolves around the sun because it has nowhere else to go. Western medicine explains that it is the pressure created by the heartbeat and the valves in the veins that prevent back flow of blood. So what allows the heart to beat or the valves to close? Chinese medicine explains the return of blood to the heart by a theory concerning the energisation of blood by Chi, which in this case acts as a powerful biological life force. Dim Mak being of Chinese origin, uses Chinese medicine rather than western medicine to explain how and why it works. There are of course some fundamental rules concerning this as not all the theories used in acupuncture apply to Dim Mak.
    One theory that applies to both acupuncture and Dim Mak is this:
    "Chi leads the blood, and blood is the mother of Chi."
     

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  16. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    ERLE MONTAIGUE!

    Montaigue is a fraud. He wrote a book called "dim mak against the grappler" yet he refuses to fight one.

    And we've been over this stuff before. Conclusion:

    Dim mak does not exist. There are places on the body that can presumably cause fatal damage when struck with a lot of force, but they don't have anything to do with "dim mak".

    Wether striking those areas is at all practical in a fight is ANOTHER matter altogether.
     
  17. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    hmm i would have to disagree. maybe dim mak is a fiction or fantasized form of reality. i think pressure points are important in fighting and making good targets. do they have a limit? maybe. should we focus on practicality rather then reality? maybe. i think if you use the easily open targets that in wing chun that are on pressurepoints can help alot.

    for example, you create common places to aim as well to have them on your centerline. furthermore we have done simple strikes to areas in this region, as they gain pain you become less effective. it is hard to demonstrate and i know only 2 or maybe 3. but 2 of them are easy to use with 1 year training, and i am glad i have such knowledge.
     
  18. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Look, you can't strike a person in a way that "disrupts their chi" causing them to die.

    Yes, it is possible to kill a person with your bare hands, but it has nothing to do with chi.

    And don't gimme that crock about "internal organ damage" either.

    It's a myth. An urban legend.
     
  19. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I find myself, perhaps unusually, agreeing with hedgehogey. I've never seen anything to convince me that striking vital points can disrupt energy flow in meridians to the point of causing serious injury(any more than any other sort of trauma you might receive). And, being a Shiatsu practitioner, I do actually know something about qi, meridians and so on. Any injury caused, in my opinion, can be understood purely in terms of mundane western medicine.

    Mike
     
  20. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    in simplest knowledge forms, i agree they are not perment damaging or sever damaging moves. though in short fights for several minutes it stuns or lowers abilities. if i use the strike our sifu tough on the sides of peoples rib cages, it disrupts the pressurpoint that controls strength (upwards motion) in your arms. so the person has harder times throwing punches and their arm speed is reduced. hmm some people might remeber a wing chun demonstration where you hold your arms out... your sifu pushes down and you resist and do fine. then he touches the pressure point on the side of your rib cage, about 3 inches from your boobs to the outside(feel around for a sore spot). now press here, and the person can't hold their arms up or swing effectivly.

    so, from here, punch this spot when you do your wc combos and move outside them, this has the same effect. the damage/disruption gives you an advantage. take what you want on your viewpoint, but i won't complain.
     

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