"Dim-Mak" or "Why Ninjas play guitar"

Bil Gee hardly needs me (of all people ) to respond... but because so much of what you have posted David has been so pathetic in substance I feel a responsibility to respond as well... (there's that bad penny!)

LOL!
Who do you think your kidding? You read an article in the newspaper make some spurious linkage to some fantasy death touch, post as much rubbish here at MAP... and that's research?!?!

You need to look up a definition of what is regarded as research. Creative writing doesn't generally fall under that category.

You're a funny lot. You post a subject. People post in response.. first you start out by slagging them and then when everyone doesn't jump in line with your fantasy ninja death moves as related to guitar chords and scales you get your panties tied in a knot. Give it a rest already.

LOL! Now a man bangs his head and it's Dim Mak or death touch... heck why not call it chopped liver?! Not sexy enough for you ninja's eh?

Sure you've made it easy.. anyone who bangs their head is a victim of t3h D34dL33 Dim Mak touch. The Dim Mak shops must be popping up like crazy in the UK. Dim Mak here... get your Dim Mak here! Bang their head before they bang yours! Get your Dim Mak here!

BWHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!

What happened to you 'ignore' button there champ. Did it dissappear like your Dim Mak fantasy when faced with reality?

Your gettin' close yourself. Don't doubt those monkeys. Look at the drivel you posted. But hey you won't be able to read this anyhow... isn't that right Mr. Dim Mak.

We'll just call you Dim for short.

 

Can you provide a single credible case of someone being hit in a dim mak point and suffering liver failure??

I highly doubt it.

If you can.. then by all means step up to bat and post it for us to see.
Have you ever worked in a hospital. What about an ER? IC unit?

Probably not.

If you did, then you would know that liver failure doesn't happen like that. Alcoholism is a more likely cause of liver failure than Dim Mak is or ever will be.

Hitting someone doesn't 'cut off' blood supply as you put it. I think you're severely misinformed in regards to human anatomy. Can you please explain how you plan to cut off blood supply by a strike? If that was the case professional boxers would be littering the hospitals with failed livers from the liver shots handed out in matches. Obviously this is not the case.

Please try to back up what you've posted with credible citations. That'd be anything in a peer review journal of the medical or sports nature. ISBN #'s or cut and pasted copies of abstracts would be greatly welcomed.

Up to this point what you have posted doesn't wash with the current facts of anatomy and physiology. Nor will anyone who's worked in the medical field in an ER room, IC unit or on an ambulance be likely to buy this version of events.

 

Its been said already, you cannot acquire t3h D34dL33 S3CR37 Dim Mak without first learning how to heal using TCM.

There are reasons for this, firstly its to prevent trouble makers who just want to fight from acquiring these elite skills. "With great power comes great responsibility, you must use your powers for good and not evil!"....i got that quote from spiderman

Second, without studying TCM theres no way on earth your going to be familiar with them. Treating patients makes you familiar with the same dim mak points and also familiarity with the human anatomy and mechanics.

Third, application of TCM in Tui Na massage requires a tremendous conditioning of the fingers and internal power, without the conditioning and power gained from treating patients, you wont have the power to deliver the dim mak strike.

 

Perhaps we were posting at the same time.

Can you post an example of this liver failure due to Dim Mak that you were talking of?

 

Some people really are getting their shiny silk outfits in a twist over this one.

Oh I do wish you people would make your minds up. Without doubt, if Chi is simply an alternative model to describe the reality of anatomy and physiology as also understood by Western science, it's a really bad one, with some fundamental and profound errors. It needs to be abandoned immediately.

Hey, I'm not bothered if it's "kung fu" or not. I'm learning how to hit people fast and hard, and that's what I signed up for, not the name. I didn't sign up to abandon my common sense and adopt medieval chinese psuedo science.

Anyway if it's not "Kung Fu", how come we don't get you and the other "Real Kung Fu Dim Mak" students coming out to challenge the rest of us and kick our butts.

 

Please don't do this, because the ridiculousness of the other arguments that you're presenting makes me wonder whether you are being serious.

Like I said, I'll happily travel to anywhere in the U.K. to see this "great power" and I'll report my findings with complete honesty on MAP. Surely, somewhere in this country where there are thousands of IMA students, at least one can deliver the goods and put this debate to rest?

 

I don't doubt the effect it's the cliche of "___________ won't work because of adrenal dump" I have actually done some of the things that are dismissed by that statement and while under great duress. Police, firemen and emergency personnel all over the world continue to perform very complex tasks under the most stressful conditions possible.

Not if you perform live. Fights aren't the only stimulus that produce adrenal dump. Ever notice the number one fear in most polls is public speaking. I have always had terrible problems with stage fright and even frequent exposure to the situation hasn't made much of a difference in the fear reaction I experience. There are many benefits to studying an art that don't directly relate to the art, just as there are many products of fighting that aren't directly related to fighting.

I don't see where it was stated that practicing music would allow you to take on any and all comers.

Music changes your minds ability to process information. Timing, rhythm and focus are all changed by the practice. In the case of guitar you develop massive calluses on the ends of your fingers, grip strength, hand-eye coordination and finger dexterity rise to phenomenal levels. Will just playing music make you the next king of the cage? No. Will it improve your performance in other areas? Yes. The skills you develop aren't limited to use in the arena they were cultivated in.

 

The last time i looked this was a martial arts chat forum, if it means that any posts i make has to be backed up by scientifuc references to medical journals and research to the standard of those in medical fields who is going to posts anything? I doubt there are many people with this level of knowledge and qualifications!

Unfortunately i didnt study medicine, but i do have a keen interest in human biology like many martial artists here im sure. I used the Liver as an example of an internal organ, it could be anything.

My reasoning is logic, the internal organs inorder to be kept alive require the supply of oxygen from the blood supply....you take away this and the organ dies. This could be from a blockage by a blood clot caused by the strike from another part of the body migrating to the blood vessel which supplies the organ with blood and thus blocking the flow.

i just did a quick google search and came up with this...duno if its reliable or not!!! i think the term they use in the medical field is Arterial embolism but have a look and let me know.

The other point is why boxers dont die so often, well the fact is some boxers do die...but its rare and mostly from blood clots in the brain...this could be related to dim mak. however the main reason is that the impact of blows on the body is reduced because of the wearing of gloves...this severly reduces the ability to effectively deliver a dim mak strike because the area of impact is much bigger and thus spread out and not concentrated.

In dim mak striking, we need to use the smallest area inorder to pierce the point, so this is why the phoenix eye is used or the fingers.

To be honest, theres alot of bitch slapping going on in this forum, i dont know the politics that go on here, all im looking for the truth like many here and i want a good intelligent debate.

 

As I've said before... while training for adrenal stress situations can help you to deal with your own response to your bodies adrenalin dump... you fine motor skills will not function at 100% of what they would under no adrenalin dump. Having worked in emergency services (EMT, Medic) I know full well what adrenalin dump is all about... there is a reason why the majority of the procedures that we did as medics are as simple as possible. They don't require any great fine motor skills. Having fought in competitions I can see fear from a completely different viewpoint as well. I find the two types of fear really quite different to deal with.

Interesting. I can agree that there are many people with an absolute fright of the limelight. Again though I personally don't see this fear as being the same as that encountered in a fight situation. Then again... maybe I haven't got a stage fright like some people have.

LOL!
To be fair that was more of a comment based on the general premise of this thread which I find to be absurd. While there are benefits to playing guitar and the skills using in learning how to chord or play scales or complex series of notes such as in a scale... I have yet to see any evidence that this postively influence your ability to apply a fine motor skill technique under the duress of an adrenalin dump.

Agreed. There are many benefits to learning a language like music and learning how play and express one's self through an instrument like the guitar. The original post and several subsequent posts touted it as the sure way to deliver the uber deadly Dim Mak death touch of legendary Ninja porportions. Which, aside from the issue of whether Dim Mak is fantasy nonsense or not... I don't quite buy. A person could learn how to type or cross stitch... both require finger strength, dexterity and complex decision making... but it's got nothing to do with martial applications.

Unless of course you type what I do and get everyone so wound up that they want to kill you!.

 

Really? That's funny, Dr. Peter Chow uses our kwoon to host his TCM seminars and everyone I see in the seminar has a white coat and a name badge with the letters RN., MD. or DO. on it, and the seminars always seem to be full. Guess they all must be ignorant, huh?

So since you're such an expert on TCM could please explain its theories to us?

 

You're right to an extent with your reasoning here. But what I often find is that so many practitioners of CMA have a poor understanding of physiology and human anatomy. If you had a dime for every spurious claim that could be easily be layed to rest by a basic first year college understanding of how the human body functions then... you sir would be a very rich man indeed.

There was recently another thread with many of the same culprits here on map going on at the same time...

http://martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42084&page=10&pp=15

(Don't be suprpised... many biatches being slapped there as well )

Fortunately Adam McG stepped in and dropped the science on people. It doesn't benefit CMA's that so many of their practicitioners are running amok with such poor understandings of something that is supposed to be so central to their art.

Ok, I won't take you to task for that. It's pretty much what I thought. But I am wary of making a connection between reading the papers about someone being hit on the head and then they die and it get's called Dim Mak. Sorry but that's just as phoney as a three dollar bill. If there is a credible link that can be proposed... I'll buy it... but until then there are tons of people that get punched in the head and suffer severe trauma and some of them even die... and it's nothing to do with Dim Mak and the person punching certainly didn't have to spend years studying Chinese massage and TCM to get to the point where he could do that.

I understand your reasoning... but organs are not as fragile as people believe. They don't die the instant that blood flow is cut off to them. Many times organ failure takes weeks to happen. The majority of cases of live failure and kidney failure that I've seen have come from severe bleeding... and I mean severe... multiple car pile up severe. Were talking a major bleed out. Not something your likely to get with a strike from a fist... Phoenix eye or not.

Blood clots do not kill a person right of either. Unless of course you have something for instance where a piece of plaque gets dislodged from an artery wall and ends up in the brain... this is often the case with people who stroke. But the thought of training for this are just silly - as usually the people with that level of plaque are quite elderly... so you be better of just shoving them iinto traffic at the crosswalk. Not that you'd do that of course.

Yes, this is exactly what I mentioned above. Plaque and all.

Or it could be from getting that right cross/left uppercut/right cross combo.
I think if we start calling every head injury and trauma Dim Mak then it will only get more silly than it already is.

Yeah, most boxers know that there are easier to learn and more immediate and effective techniques than this supposed Dim Mak stuff. Again - we have all kinds of data on boxing... I have yet to see any... I mean even one iota of credible data on someone dieing from Dim Mak technique.

Yeah I am somewhat familiar with these kinds of strikes. I do live in Hong Kong after all... we certainly have no shortage of IMA's here. As well there are similar strikes, albeit without all the hocus pocus in Japanese MA's.

LOL!
Yeah it get's a bit silly at times. If it's worth the bother though... you will note that my very first post was free of bitch slaps and then David jumped in and flapped his lips... act like a biatch... get slapped like one.

I can appreciate where your coming from. And hopefully I haven't offended you in answering your questions or posts directly.

 

I don't see much difference biologically in response, however, fear is a very subjective state so what terrifies one man into catatonia may only illicit a yawn from another.

Then again I may or may not be the best test subject as I also suffer from PTSD so my coping mechanisms are in great shape.

Developing a skill like playing an instrument has a lot in common with MA training. You start by breaking the whole into smaller pieces and individually drilling them, then combining them and repeating the process over and over.

Try to pluck a note on a guitar sometime, it takes a precision that would need to be measured with a micrometer to get it to sound right, but everyone has heard these notes played in such blazing succession that they almost blend into a single note. Stringed instruments are one of the most complicated to work with in theory and practice because of the amount of details and sensitivity needed, you must be lightning fast and laser precise. The first step is just playing, next learning to play standing up (whole new world) and being able to move and show stage presence, next is being able to sing, stand and move and play. Not unlike the progression from technique, to bag and pads, to the ring.

Developing skill sets are not mutually exclusive, the practice enhances the neural communication between brain and body and while it may apply more to the skill used to develop the link the added functionality from this link applies to any other skill learned. We are all born with the capability to speak any language and perform any skill that any other human has done, whether or not we keep that ability is determined by our habits. If you don't cultivate it, the potential withers and eventually goes away.

LOL! I think getting people wound up is the official pastime of the U.K. Just as making boorish and crass statements is the official duty of the U.S.

 

You clearly haven't spent a lot of time looking around the forum. The best place to start is in health and fitness were there is often a level of evidence based academic debate at graduate level and above.

If you don't know a great deal about a topic, it's probably not wise to use it as an argument against people who do have a good understanding.

No problem there, the term that you're looking for is ischaemia (reduced or no blood supply).

Yep, that's fine as well. I fail to see what point you are making though.

"Ooohhh if it weren't for these gloves I would have gone all dim mak on his ass." ROFLMAO.

When you say "we", I assume that you use Dim Mak, would you like to volunteer to give me a demonstration?

The politics are - liberal "bitchslappings" for anyone talking crap.

 

So long I could be arsed to read it all.

It was all a comparison and I don't think guitar chords and pressure point techniques actually bear that much similarity but it was an interesting concept that could be related to in a number of ways, including the adrenaline of r34l situations and live performances

And as to your penultimate paragraph, I have worked on doors, fought in a ring & cage and played guitar on stage in front of several hundred people, and the apprehension prior to all of them is pretty similar. Your heart races, your hands shake, you wonder if you can do it and doubt your ability, and then as soon as it kicks off, everything slides nicely into place...IF YOU'VE PRACTICED ENOUGH!!!

If you miss a chord you cover it up and carry on...if you miss your favourite shot, you carry on with the combination.

I'm not saying mulitple pressure point attacks would work, I'm just saying in the comparison of them to playing chords, there is no reason that given enough practice, you couldn't use the right application if you wanted to.

p.s If I had a bottled aimed at my face it makes no difference whether it was in a pub or on stage...very little you can do about it...its all down to luck and whether it hits you. I can't see any strike doing much good in this situation.

Your next point please...

 

Hey no probs mate, infact its always good to hear things from another angle especially if you have experience in the medical field. If anything your posts have added to the debate and raised some good points.

Bil_Gee however seems to be just argueing for the sake of argueing, adding nothing of relevant use except insults into the debate, i see no reason why i should continue communication with this poor excuse of an individual.

For your interest Bil Gee, Dim mak is indeed a part of the system im training in but its not the be all and end all, and its not something that i am capable of delivering at my current level.

In terms of fighting there are much more relevant things to train such as power, sensitivity drills, two man exercises which develop timing, distancing, etc... If you want to cross hands with me bring it on, i live near Exeter in Devon (southwest uk) if your around those parts contact me and i will meet up with you.

 

Oh dear he's not going to speak to me.....hang on.

Surely you must know someone who's capable of delivering it?

The point was to demonstrate Dim Mak, travelling across the country just to spar wouldn't prove much one way or the other.
As I said, I'll happily travel for a demonstration of the power of dim mak, video camera in hand. It's just a shame that there isn't ANYBODY in the civilized world who is at the appropriate level.

 

I see {snipped}

 

waa waa waa. Stop whining.

 

Bil gee you totally fail to address any of the issues. i spit on you.

 

Oh my.
David has resorted to spitting on people who post in his thread and don't agree with his Dim Mak fantasies. When Dim Mak fails.... the spitting reflex kicks in?

That's not nice. You're gonna hurt Bil Gee's feelings.
David, you are getting sadder by the post. Even in your own thread you've failed to provide anything to the thread except slights to others and generally help it to descend into a flame fest.

David, ask the MOD's to close this thread before you further embarrass yourself.