"Dim-Mak" or "Why Ninjas play guitar"

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by David, Nov 2, 2005.

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  1. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    OMG!!!
    Ninja Dim Mak Sweetness!!!
     

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  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Frett Blazing Sweetness!
    Rock On!!!
     

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  3. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Good lord man! You must have a second brain in your butt to be this much of a smart ass!

    I think it's really a shame that the major propponents of dim mak don't know much about dim mak. it's also really a shame that the major opponents of dim mak don't know much about dim mak.

    ADRENALINE DUMP

    Ever been in a fight-like situation, as STJ is suggesting causes massive adrenaline? If you have, then you will agree with me when I say that you don't need some nerdy scientist with data to tell you that you lose fine motor skills when you are in that type of situation. Do you want to apply pressure point attacks? Then you need to:

    A. Practice pressure point attacks.
    B. Train yourself to handle adrenaline dump by pressure testing what you do.

    What do you mean it doesn't work? Do you mean that it doesn't work in the sense that if I touch someone 5 times in the right places on tuesday at 3:23 PM while it's sunny in late autumn they wont die?

    DUUUUUUHHH!!!

    Being able to kill someone by touching them 5 times in the right places is like being able to break someone's neck with a combo in choy lai fut, or being able to knock someone out with a single technique in shotokan karate, or being able to land a jumping, spinning, back side snap kick in tae kwon do, or being able to travel at light speed in space! It's possible, but unlikely, and if it actually happens, it's the culmination of lots of hard work, practice, knowledge, etc.

    You two fall into the category "opponents of dim mak, who don't know anything about dim mak."

    Good discussion STJ and xen master. I enjoyed reading it.
     
  4. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    No, it isn't. The difference is empirical evidence.

    Mitch
     
  5. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    What do you mean?!
    The pictures fit the title/concept of the thread.:D

    Funny... no one seems to know much about Dim Mak.

    Ok, in all seriousness Yohan... (a rare moment I'm sure you know) how does one practice uber-deadly pressure point attacks without killing your training partner? How can they be done at full speed?

    And how do you ratchet up the adrenaline to simulate anything you have in a real life violent conflict scenario. What kind of protective gear do your opponents wear? Eye protection? And how much simulation of the real environment have you got... Thumping house music? ****ed up or pilled up yourself? Your opponent? Chairs and tables conveniently in the way? Bouncers and door guys ready to thump you? Opponents mate ready to jump in? What about someone yelling at you... the general aggro agression that goes with most fights outside of the gym?


    Not as hard as you might think.

    again not impossible.

    hmm... several people I know... but not most.

    Got me.

    As with anything really. But training to modify your response to your adrenalin stress signature requires that you can get the adrenalin going full tilt... I don't see many gyms or dojo's being able to do this.

    Dim Mak is harldy the only system that relies on pressure points. So answer some of the questions above and let's see where you stand on your knowledge of adrenalin stress response testing. Otherwise for all your knowledge of Dim Mak you might as well be training pattycakes.

    Thanks.
     
  6. chasleeuk

    chasleeuk Valued Member

    I think maybe theres some misunderstanding on what dim mak is here...

    Dim mak isnt a style, its rather just an extra set of knowledge or skills on where to hit for maximum damage. If you cant fight, even with dim mak skills you wont be able to fight....however if you can fight, then knowing dim mak will enhance your fighting skills!

    for instance say you punch someone in the head, now we know there are famous pressure points on the head such as temple and chin which will cause more damage and knock out if hit...so you would aim for these areas for maximum effect!

    I dont know much about Adrenalin stress, but from what ive read in the posts it seems that the body isnt capable of complex motions during stress....certainly hitting certain combinations of small areas would be out of the question.

    However if you study the human body according to accupuncture theory, its literally covered with pressure points, infact pretty much anywhere you hit or seize will make contact with some kind of pressure point! so to hit pressure points isnt like a small area, its quite a large target area! so even if i missed the intended target, and i catch something down the line it would still have an effect!

    Now if i was to create a system which included dim mak attacks which took advantage of these pressure points, i would create techniques which made sure that even without the pressure points they would still work, BUT if they did make contact with pressure point the damage is maximised, also it would have to work on anyone and be able to work under a real situation!

    It doesnt make sense to create a system of fighting which only works for certain people at certain times, it has to work for anybody at any time other wise its a useless system! I dont believe the Chinese who created these dim mak skills are stupid enough to train generations and generations on something that was essentially useless in application, especially not the Hakka Chinese whose lives depended on their fighting skills since they constantly got into fights with local farmers and bandits!

    (Hakka chinese are the inventors of southern mantis, which was the style in the link posted, the techniques rely heavily on pressure points seizing and striking)
     
  7. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    Stop bleating like whiny sheep and do the *actual* research.

    The "opponents" of dim-mak tend to use some kind of cartoonified argument about death touches which is about as relevant as an irrelevant thing. It's the opponents who stand alone talking about exaggerated non-existent things. Talk like that leads me to suspect dim-wittedness or a contrived aversion to knowledge, neither of which interest me.

    Any acupuncturist could show you dim-mak, let alone the many earnest (advanced) TCMA practitioners who openly teach it to diligent students.

    If you want to see dim-mak in the world, keep your eye out for freak deaths in the newspapers. These days, I don't pay much attention to "News" but when I did, I picked up a couple of things. One, a boy died from an elbow in the side of the neck which stopped his heart; another a man banged the crown of his head, fell over, got up apologising hysterically and dropped dead. A guy I'm going to have a beer with in 40 minutes hit someone once in a temple point causing the mouth to open in rictus and the eyes to be stuck in a rolled-up-in-their-sockets way - just like it's described in a manual (or was it training vid?).

    Rgds,
    David
     
  8. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Funny there have been many actual posts in regards to what your original thread starting post was... yet you have yet to respond to any of them. So really who is more dimwitted? I suspect the latter.

    Puhleeze. :rolleyes:

    A lady today was killed when another woman jumped out of a 15th story flat and landed on her. Let me guess... she was using Dim Mak right?

    Today in the papers, an old lady was knocked down while crossing the street and later died. The taxi that clipped her was using Dim Mak right?

    I stubbed my toe the other day on the way to the shower... no... don't say it... Dim Mak.

    Christ... no one wonder no takes Dim Mak seriously. I'm sure there is some validity to Dim Mak... but you sure ain't helping it any. :bang:
     
  9. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    DISCLAMER:

    I have never practiced Dim Mak. I have only had minimal exposure to an art that specializes in pressure point attacks (2 lessons). What I'm posting is based on speculation, research, and a dab of common sense.

    It seems to me that the pressure point attacks aren't uber-deadly until you are high up in the training. I've started taking some SPM classes and I'll ask my instructor how you can train this stuff without killing your partner. Until then, I'll speculate.

    In years 1-x, you don't really have the knowledge or skill to execute a permanently disabling/killing technique (assuming they exist, which I personally doubt). So in that time, the most you are going to do is cause some pain for your training partner, stun them momentarily, or something like that. I would assume that they can be done at full speed, and that you could practice pressure point combos, as long as you pick out ones that aren't going to severely injure, disable, or kill your opponent (I.E. if you know that stomach 5, then spleen 2, then heart 6 will cause your opponents kidneys to shut down, then don't do that combo), instead pick out a combo that will just hurt real bad, and practice it. In that way, you can practice accuracy, combos, etc at full speed.

    Hate to say it, and I know you are going to faint, but if I'm aiming for a the pressure point on your chest that lies ~2 inches down from your collar bone and ~1 inch left of your sternum, and you are wearing some kind of protective gear over your chest, practicing the strike is going to be pointless. If you are wearing a poofy glove, practicing the strike is going to be pointless. I don't know how to answer this question except to say that I don't know.

    Personally, if I was practicing dim mak strikes, I wouldn't hit the eye.

    Honestly, do you practice this kind of stuff at your Muay Thai gym? You have ways to train adrenaline dump (I.E. full contact sparring) that don't involve thumping house music, extacy, alcohol, chairs and tables, bouncers, and multiple opponents.

    So where is the difference?

    You know it's a very good question that you are posing, and I understand the implications of your questions, and the difficulties with combining two fundamentally different training methods. Coming up with a way to reconcile these to would be beneficial indeed.

    The difficulty is:

    It's hard to train pressure point strikes with protective gear on.
    It's hard to pressure test without protective gear on.

    I would suggest doing them seperately. Train your dim mak in sensetivity drills, light to medium contact sparring, and train your adrenaline response in full contact sparring.
     
  10. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    You can ignore him? Sweet.. I wish I would have known that earlier.
     
  11. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Ok, fair enough. I can respect that you admit you don't know, I'm not expecting you to post everything. I guess my question would be then if you are practicing you Dim Mak or whatever pressure point technique that can eventually get to the level of uber-deadliness.... at what point do you start either backing off or risk killing or disabling your training partner?

    My point here was that if you are practicing it under an adrenalin stress situation you may not intend to strike the eye... but all it takes is one attempt to bob or weave and you're looking like little Jack Horner with your finger in someone's eye socket.

    Many of the reality based self defense course's that have adrenalin stress response training have the opponent padded to the hilt so that both of you can go full stop. Then again... many of them have realized that realized that fine motor skills (as stated so many times and backed up by scientific fact) go right out the window.

    Not as part of our Muay Thai class no. Unless you can count the Thai ring music as adrenalin inducing. :D
    However the door guys that we train with several nights a week have much different needs than our fighters. So many things are often improvised. And yes much of it does include copious amounts of swearing, loud music and low lights. And no we don't bother with fine motor skills... we are already aware that they are not much use in the adrenalin dump scenario.

    Yes, but my point was that if Dim Mak or other pressure point systems are so deadly then how on earth do you practice them 'full contact' without seriously hurting your opponent? In Muay Thai that is easy because you compete wearing gloves anyhow.. so it's not much different. Do get me wrong you can still get KTFO'd easily and it wouldn't be pleasant... but again the point was how do you train Dim Mak/death touch/yadda yadda yadda at only half power?!?

    The difference is posted above.



    Yeah, I agree. I'm not having a go at IMA's... well just a few jabs at the usual Dim Mak wanna be's that inevitabley chime into these threads... but other than that I'd be curious to know how they could be reconciled.

    Agreed.

    Interesting.
     
  12. hux

    hux ya, whatever.

    my only experience with pressure point stuff has been

    A-getting kicked in the nads, which was pretty danged effective

    and

    B-we had a young-ish guy who had trained in one of "those" arts, started mouthing off about how he could end our match with a pressure point strike..when invited to demonstrate he tried this thing where he was pinching at my collarbone like Mr. Spock and giving me this oddball look. I pretty much punched him in the head, and he quit doing that. Muttered somethng about muscleheads, shrug.

    I'm assuming that was NOT dim-mak, right? I think it's reliably and consistently hitting the "mark", as it were, that I would have a hard time believing possible. Even this guy, I hadda stand still and let him "lock on"...
     
  13. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    LOL! :D
    Siphus... typical you... a day late and a dollar short.
    Ignore all you want... it's easy enough to ignore your drivel. It's been done on so many threads you've chimed into. And I certainly don't have to use super-duper console functions to do it. I love it... super Ninja but only recently figured out MAP's thread functions. :D

    Hmmm... maybe there is a broken-Ninja-record function I can employ for eager wanna-be Ninja's such as yourself.

    You and David are two pea's in a pod. :D
    You can live out your Kung Fu/Ninja fantasies with one and other. Neither of you really letting the other know just the lot you really are. Then your fantasy world won't collapse and result in albino apes and Jesus laughing at you like it did for Taiji Buttetroll. :eek:

    Pfffttt!!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2005
  14. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise


    Sounds to me like the guy has watched too many movies.

    Although, even smoeone lightly trained in PP could verify thier effectiveness. There have been times while sparring that I've reached for the collar bone and tugged on it for a throw. Even in a classic judo throw, from kumi uchi (one hand collar, one hand shoulder on the enemy) after a leg sweep, my opponent landed on the mat the same time my thumb went digging into the side of neck, under his jaw. There are so many things you can do the techniques are endless.

    "Dim mak" on the other hand...ehh... I've heard stories of people getting knocked out without being touched etc, but I havent seen any in person. I am going to an internal arts seminar shortly and I'll let you guys know wut happens. Being the pragmatic kind of person i am, i doubt I'll be impressed, but we'll see.

    -Ryan.
     
  15. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    The fantastic stories could maybe create some doubt forty years ago, when all these things were new to the West and had never been investigated. But forty years on and thousands and thousands of westerners having been trained in Dim Mak, and we still haven't had anyone come forward with the goods. How many years do these people have to keep saying that "the cheque is in the post", before you start to doubt them.

    I repeat, not once has anyone ever come remotely close to demonstrating that there is any reality at all to the ideas of Dim Mak. Why is this?
     
  16. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    I think I just broke my ribs :D
     
  17. Vanir

    Vanir lost my sidhe

    I noted the wing chun training I did (not a whole lot but enough, with Cheung's Academy to get to know the style), seemed to concentrate on a general philosophy of what I might term, riding the emotions and intentions of the attacker to turn self defence into succeeding the conflict. That's the style. It uses dim mak among its techniques (G'master Cheung has written at least one book on it).

    In my opinion, this philosophy as opposed to a more confrontational one such as karate, or directive one such as aikido, concentrates to redirect the adrenalin dump itself into immediate (almost desperate) action, which does have the bonus effect of leaving at least part of the mind relatively free of primordeal imolation. One useful training technique one might be able to use with wing chun style motions might be holding an intellectual conversation whilst sparring. Whereas to gain the atmosphere of karate you'd subconsciously change the conversation to be a little more reactive and express vocalisation dynamically, the pairing here to physical motion would be more conscious actions with a lot of focus.

    Keep in mind many anthropological and social science test data is extremely generalised and anthropologists themselves state that correlation does not infer causation (unfortunately psychologists don't, but psychology is a supplimentary qualification if hard sciences are to be studied).

    The entire point of martial arts is that a philosophy when combined with physical training can develope a primate in physical application. This is quite a different scenario to average test results based on a control body. ie. you might find some people don't react quite the same to an adrenalin dump that they're supposed to. Some get sharper, smarter, quicker thinking, more imaginative, more effective, or horny, twisted, paranoic, or incapable and overwhelmed. Some get off on it, some disregard it, some go with it, others just notice it and wear the effects but try on something else regardless.

    But I think the point with dim mak and pressure point style techniques are firstly a reliance in part on psychological response, which is counterproductive to effective combat resolution (but works great in shows and stage plays or contests), and the nature of evolving this kind of tool usage for genuine applicability. Many pressure points, and this is my main concern with them, are in fact vital organ areas such as vein sinuses, glands and such and successive, even light hits during training sessions can cause serious damage down the track.
    Glands and sinuses and other vital areas are vulnerable body parts and it is dangerous to play at striking them.
    Thus in my opinion, the only proper way to learn effective pressure point tool usage is on a battlefield where there's less than no reason to care what damage you do developing a usable familiarity with them.

    Otherwise try bone structure manipulation and basic vital target areas where you absolutely have to and you're sure you're legally sound for anything that might happen. Save the real hardcore dim mak for when the commies invade and experiment to develope it as you down them hand to hand by the dozen using more familiar techniques, you'll be a master in no time and won't need to threaten the well being of other devoted students along the way.

    Put simply, applying pressure point techniques have questionably unpredictable responses and are not medically sound activities.
     
  18. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I surely do want to keep at least part of my mind relatively free of primordeal imolation...

    Mitch
     
  19. chasleeuk

    chasleeuk Valued Member

    You study wing chun, yes? do you not use pressure points in wingchun?

    Have you heard about accupuncture? do you know why people use accupuncture as a healing method? Which came first the ability to destroy or the ability to heal by manipulating the same internal energy channels?

    Why is it that internal energy channel theory is not only specific to the Chinese, but also it is also found in the traditional martial arts of other countries such as Okinawa, Indonesia and India.

    What exactly do you think 'Dim Mak' is? If you think its some kind of magic death touch like they show in films then your wrong...lately ive seen examples of con men who like to demonstrate their "no touch knockouts" usually these are fat americans who dont know sh!t, i certainly wouldnt consider these fools fit enough to be called martial artists. Its these clowns which give martial arts a bad name.
     
  20. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    Because the guitar doesn't try to hit you back, cover itself, and evade you while you're playing it. Also, the frets aren't spaced differently on every guitar. Do you think you could play a guitar where the fret spacing was different than on a regular guitar, every time you tried to pluck a string, it dodged out of the way, it had the capability of covering up its strings, and every so often it just smacked you in the face? Also, we have proof that holding down different guitar frets and strumming a string actually does something, unlike with dim mak. I've been playing the piano since I was two and a half years old, and I've played the guitar a little bit. It's nothing like fighting.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2005
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