"Dim-Mak" or "Why Ninjas play guitar"

I have the benefit of Slipthejab being on my ignore list - it just wipes his posts out hehe. I only ever encounter him on threads he's clueless on, so what's the point of reading his crap? Sweet.

I don't get the argument about the opponent moving about. Some people bring that up, makes me think they expect me to rush in from 10 metres away with my eyes shut holding my phoenix-eye out in front hehe. These are usually grabbing/hitting techniques which come after an initial grab/hit (incoming or outgoing). From that initial connection with the opponent, you know where everything is to a fair degree of certainty.

It's not like a Universal Unknown: it's a system developed by people - so... TMAs know, duh!

Rgds,
David

 

slip, there is logic to that...however, as a scientist/engineer, i would caution people against the 'scientific' fact arguments...much of the cutting edge of science is merely opinion drawn from an interpretation of data...and that interpretation is often coloured by the agenda of the researcher...be it a theory they are keen to prove or a need to find results which please those people funding the researcher...

in some areas..science can be trusted (newton says if i stand under a falling piano...i'm going to break some bones...is a pretty safe bet)...but any experiment designed to test PP in relation to adrenaline would be very difficult to draw clear boundaries around and arrive at undesputable conclusions...not being picky...just offering an interpretation.

 

Xenmaster,
My post doesn't neccessarily draw the line against anyone being able to perform death touch or Dim Mak or whatever... it merely points out what the body goes through in an adrenalin stress situation... one where you someone might try to use something like Dim Mak - it does however point out that it may not be the most plausible of things to attempt given the current accepted theories on how the body responds under certain conditions. The scientific theory and evidence on how the body reacts in an adrenaline stress situation is fairly well researched - as well it's a topic that has been covered in depth here on MAP quite often. If you're interested I can point you towards several threads where it's been gone over in quite a few pages.

I agree with you that going the hard nose route with the scientific evidence is often not the best way to go. But when it comes down to the central nervous system and how fear affects one in a combat situation... it's pretty clear cut. There isn't the usual nefarious paper trail and agenda based funding that happens so often when scientific fact is touted.

David,
Funny you bring up a topic and then start in on people responding with something besides tough guy stories and Ninja fantasy stuff. Besides, who are you kidding - Ignore list or not... you read my first post just like your reading this one. I've put you on my 'bad penny' list - I will always come back to you. :love: and there is already one 'dim' in dim mak... please don't add another.

 

I don;t think its a matter of their ability to use Dim Mak, just the fact that it doesn't actually work ?

 

F#7 isn't that difficult to play. I guess Dim Mak might be more like one of those min7#3sus12 type chords that are really hard to play and sound rubbish.

 

slip,

fair points...the juries out with me re; 'dim mak' as a 'one touch to the grave technique'...but i think PP training generally gets alot of stick...just to clarify...it isn't something that i particularly focus on, but it is something have been exposed to...and in grappling scenarios i have felt quite severe pain on numerous occaisons when more experience MAists used them to weaken my position and create an opening.

my comments about the presentation of scientific data in relation to MA's were perhaps partly inspired reading past threads on here where people get into long drawn out debates about the physics of throwing punches and try to come up with an accurate mathematical formula for 'the most effective way to throw a punch'...appologies for jumping in and being influenced by such sillyness

regarding the comments about losing 'fine motor skills'...i see that as a point which could be discussed...my guess is that people (myself included) have a tendancy to analyse what the body does naturally and find plausible explanations...clearly, in the heat of the moment, what an individual can do in the relative calm of a dojo situation will be far removed from what happens when the gloves are off, so to speak...

i guess i just find it a pessimistic approach to decide for oneself that such levels of control are beyond a 'normal' persons ability to attain...one of the things that inspired me to train was that it 'seems' that with years of training, it is possible to reach levels of skill and control which are not possible without those prior years of dilligent practice...

its nice to have something that is seemingly a very rarely attained level of skill to work towards...and for that reason i try to stay open-minded about what more experienced people are capable of and optimistic that one day i might get to that level of ability myself...

but until i get there i'll just keep on with the ever important business of keeping on top of the basics...

 

LOL!

You might be surprised how hard to play the F#7 while under incoming bombs from some palooka.

Me?

I'm going of the A chord because it's the easiest one to make a fist out of. Ya know... gross motor skills an all.

 

Pah! I used to be in a rubbish band - hence we had to play while under attack all the time

 

So what about the adrenaline stress and comparison of performing your chords infront of a live audience?

Are you telling me that you can't control your bodily motor function enough if you have practised and rehearsed when you finally take the step of moving out of the comfort of your bedroom/rehearsal room into the "live" environment?

ok...you may make a few mistakes and fluff a few chords...but unless you really haven't prepared properly, you are still going to play the songs!

Its all about pressure testing and preparing adequately for the situation.

Why wouldn't that work if you have prepared adequately? What you are saying is that nothing will ever prepared you for the adrenaline increase in a "r34l" situation and that, quite frankly is rubbish.

Yes the fine motor skills are affected, but if you have prepared adequately/pressure tested etc, why couldn't you apply the same techniques?

The arguement you use is a reduntant one often made by people who aren't prepared to widen there horizons to understand the applications of something they haven't bothered to study.

 

I can agree there are valid pressure point techniques. Dim Mak in particular.. I dunno... seem's any time it comes up there is a whole crowd of complete idiots that show up touting it... and most seem to have very little real world experience in violent situations. Most come off as comic book influenced kids.

There are several in Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu pressure point techniques that are real nightmares to get caught with. But Daito Ryu would be a great example of something you don't see come up much... it's hard to find a school number one... and two it takes forever to get to a point where you can effectively apply them even in a dojo setting... let alone in a violent conflict outside.

I am usually of the opinion that most people that love to run on and post about them and all T3h D3aD133 effectiveness of them actually know very little about them. Certainly the people that I've trained under who did know how to deal out pressure point attacks certainly weren't blabbing on forums about them.

Ah no worries. No need to apologize. I realize the whole scientific fact thing can veer just as much towards the sillyness as the mystical Kung Fu stuff can. Usually to a lesser degree - but that's the nature of the beast I suppose... no one idolizes nerdy scientists with data... where if the sheer volume of dopey threads are anything to go by - everyone fantasizes about being a mystical Kung Fu master.

This is something that has come up here on MAP recently a lot. It is right along the lines of pressure testing your MA. Which I wholeheartedly think is a great thing. But other MA's lend themselves to pressure testing better than others. A Japanese example would be Daito Ryu.... many of the techniques can't really be applied full force without seriously injuring your opponent.... so pressure testing in the same way that you can with say Muay Thai or Boxing isn't probably going to happen. A Chinese example would be Choy Li Fut... some of the things I've seen would be pretty hard to apply full stop without doing serious damage to the person you're applying them to.... so chances are the pressure testing is not going to really be the same.

Of course it's something that can get kicked back and forth ad infinitum here on MAP.

I don't know that they'd be impossible. There are certainly things I've seen in other arts that can be done... but the example I'm thinking of is an individual who's devoted the better part of a decade to training. It's not the crowd that usually shows up here on MAP that is touting the death touch as if it was something you could pick up at 7-11... which I find total rubbish fantasy.

There are several reality based self defense types that recently have allowed more full on attacks by both parties and they've realized the value of training in the adrenalin stress zone. Many law enforcement and military personel have taken the time to train in that zone... and many of their programs are designed for just that situation where you adrenalin is coursing and you have to nuetralize a threat ASAP.

Agreed. That's a positive mindset to have and it always pays to check out other arts and to stick with one for more than just several years. There become so many things that one can only see after years of training. Things that never make the radar of anyone that's only been at it a few years.

Good gameplan. I do much of the same.

 

The fear factor of performing in front of a live audience doesn't generally have the same psychological weight or fear inducing power as someone charging you with a broken bottle. The penalty for failing to play a riff live smoothly and accurately has far lighter consequences than does catching a bottle or an ashtray or someones foot in your face.

Nope. That's not what I'm telling you. If I wanted to tell you that I'd have said just that. I'm not known for mincing words here on MAP so what ever gave you the idea that I wouldn't just come out and directly state my thoughts.

Go back and read my post and understand the difference between fine motor skills and gross motor skills... understand the bodies nervous system and how it responds... do a search here on MAP - this has been gone over in great detail by myself many times. Read up. You might be surprised what you learn.

Quite likely yes. But playing tunes for an audience is quite a different animal than getting your face pounded in isn't it. This is how I see the comparison between playing the guitar and the application of pressure point techniques against an intent violent attacker to be so flimsy as to be useless.

If you are training in something that is based on gross motor movements and you are pressure testing it to try to make it applicable in a violent conflict then given time there is a possiblity that you can apply that technique successfully. However if you are attempting to use fine motor skills or a whole host of other functions that diminish with an adrenaline dump... chances are you will not be able to use them in any way that even remotely resembles what can be achieved under a non stress situation. I would imagine that much of what you would attempt would be totally useless.

Jesus, are lacking in reading comprehension? Go back and read what was posted. A second time through you might find it's not exactly the words you're trying to put in my mouth. If you've ever read any of my other posts on the subject of adrenaline stress response here on MAP then you'll know that I completely support the idea of adrenaline stress testing of techniques. However if you expect you body to function the same way under adrenaline stress that it does when in the gym or dojo... your kidding yourself. It doesn't quite work that way. You can change your personal response to an adrenaline dump... but I don't think your going to find much support for the idea that you can ever get your fine motor skills up to 100%.

Because of the physiological fact that certain physical responses are diminished to a point of uselessness in an adrenalin dump scenario. If you take your average martial artists... he comes nowhere near to being able to test his adrenaline stress response in something that resembles the real fear of violent conflict. Most dojos/gyms don't have the inclination nor the equipment to train in this way.

I might actually take this comment seriously if you understood what it was I was saying instead of putting words in my mouth. My horizons are broad enough to consider possibilities... but even given that there are certain physiological structures that have to be taken into consideration - a persons adrenalin stress response would be the first.

I would love to hear how you plan on using your fine motor skills in just such an adrenalin stress situation... and I would also love to hear just how you train for such a situation. Please... do inform us... please let me know what sort of pressure testing you do on a regular basis that allows you to emmulate realistically a violent confrontation.

Unless you've spent time working on doors or fighting in the ring I would doubt that you have the resources to pressure test on a regular basis with anything that even comes close to resembling a violent confrontation.

But anywho... please do let us know....ya know... broad horizons and all.



p.s.
Hi David... long post eh?

 

needs repeating at least once every page on this thread. Along with asking what use is a technique that you can only use at 3:23pm on a Tuesday afternoon if it's sunny and late autumn.

 

LOL!
Someone buy that man a pint!

 

Moosey has just shown me the light...

 

Seems like a lot of MAs switch off at just one degree of understanding. Like you learn just enough to control your fear. You're studying finished the day you got a belt or a ring-fight or something. Since then, you've been training what you already have. That's fair enough but it's still self-limited. Argue for your limitations and they're yours, as the saying goes.

Rgds,
David

 

I'm definitely open to the idea of pressure points - I really like the idea that you can bring someone down using your knowledge of anatomy rather than power or brute force - but I'm just not sure how worthwhile it is to study this rather than just a quicker, harder punch. If there was lots of evidence that PPs were applicable under stress, on anyone, and reliable then I'd be first in line.

 

Isn't whacking someone in the jaw using a pressure point?

 

Not that you're reading this David ...

nudge nudge-wink wink....

You make a lot of assumptions there.
Obviously though you've failed to address any of the real issues posted on this thread. You certainly haven't addressed any of the phsyiological factors as they relate to the subject of this thread especially when they specifically comment on what you yourself has posted.

So I guess it's no surprise you're familiar with limitations eh?

 

oh wait...
I have seen the light and opened myself up to you insight David.
In my dilligence I have come across ancient scriptures that support your theory....

 

Everyone knows that Ninja's shred all too sweetly...
Here a scriptures that prove it... try these tasty liks... just be careful about tapping people on the shoulder after looking at these... it could kill them!