I am vary interested in Eastern Sword training and wanted to know the some novice advice on it such as; 1) Iaido is based on a single strike while kendo or kumdo is based on more "battle" scenario training, but what is the difference? 2) I have read Kendo & Kenjitsu are different but I am not sure how? 3) In wanting to take up some training on my own is there a best way to go or should I work on finding an Instructor? P.S. As with anything, beating the crap out of each other with padded weapons, while fun, teaches me nothing about using the weapon.
Iaido was a sword art developed I believe later on in Japan centering around ones defence in and around the cities. Iai means 'to draw'. It is taught mainly in the form of kata - either single or paired and with various of them involving blade to blade contact. Each starts with the sword being drawn - the principle of the art being that you would be minding your own business and when assailed would have to present your weapon quickly and effectively to down an opponent or multiple opponents. Kendo is otherwise known as 'japanese fencing'. Whilst it does involve armour I believe it is much further away from the core of swordplay than western fencing is - but some will disagree. In simple though the objective is to hit your opponent with the stick (shinai) - although hit is a loose term. Kenjutsu is much more about actual sword play - I haven't studied or observed a huge amount of it so I can't really comment in detail, but from what I understand pretty much everything begins with your sword already drawn and centres around what you would do against a similar opponent. It is more what I would called battlefield swordsmanship. There is also seems to be sparring with bokken whereas Iaido typically doesn't exhibit this - at least not within the core of the art. In general if you want to learn about swordplay Kenjutsu would be the way to go but it is very rare compared to other stuff - same with Iaido. There ARE schools to be found but they are literally few and far between. Best place to start, google, legitimate sword organisations, British Kendo Association if they still have a list of sword based dojo's they insure.
I think that Iaido takes a more spiritual approach to the art now. But it did start out as a drawing art - bit like a cross between the quick draw cowboys of the wild west and Zen I suppose. Don't forget that some kung-fu styles have weapons too. And then there is Krabi krabong, where you get to fight with two weapons (I attended a seminar once, was great fun, if a little painful!). And escrima, although sticks not swords, also gives you the chance to hit people with sticks, if that is the main objective for you. If you live in Essex, check out 5-elements.co.uk for escrima.
Depending on the system of escrima/arnis/kali, the stick is simply a training tool and should be thought of as representive of the blade.
Thank you for the input I do have an Iaido school fairly close to me. I was also wondering about Kumdo if you happen to know anything about it?
peace bro. im a kung fu guy and 90 percent of the styles and systems have many weapons and weapons forms in them. and also there are but very rare chinese sword styles that are there own system with forms, free sparring, and all that good stuff. i forget the name of the one system i read up on but when i find it i will post it. it is very hard to find a teacher who teaches the weapons the right way and even harder to find someone who teaches the applications and free sparring with them. like kendo chinese martial arts has a sport aspect now called the world jianshu league. they have specially made swords for the sport. one day i hope to compete in it.
Kumdo is Kendo (99.5% same DNA ), the main visible differences being wearing trousers instead of hakama pants, not going down into sonkyo (the kneeling with swords crossed) with your opponent before starting a match and the use of Korean terminology to declare targets as you cut instead of the japanese and Korean terminology for the equipment. Shinai Kendo is a modified form of a kenjustu sparring training system developed in the Itto Ryu from @ 1700AD. Having done both it and euro fencing, it is much closer to the swordsmanship it comes from than fencing with foil, but has a lot of restrictions to allow safe bouting that take it away from its roots. There is limited targeting (essentially head, throat, wrists, sides of abdomen) because these are the targets that can be armoured, so some historical targets like inside of thigh, under the armpit etc are not allowed, the bamboo sword is longer than a katana (which gives less rigidity). Some kenjustu techniques apply without change, others are not possible or really inefficent like cutting from wakinokamae, and there are a range of 'competiton' techniques that would have gotten you killed back in the day. Iaido does not mean to draw the sword - literally it means something like the path of harmonious response - the ai is the same as in aikido... feel threat, do harmonious response of drawing and slicing down the threat instinctively without malicious intent maintaining order in the universe - zen meets sudden violence. Since most of iaido is one person patterns it teaches sword technique more than sword fighting - kendo on the other hand teaches less sword technique but much more sword fighting / reading opponent / sparring - thats why iaido and kendo complement each other - between them it is a much more complete version of Japanese swordsmanship.... but it depends on what floats your boat - most people do only one or the other.
Heh...You could try Wikipedia... Kendo is basically the modern form of Kenjutsu, restricted to attacks to certain targets only and making use of kata (forms), and Shiai (Contests), as well as training for both...Practitioners usually wear Hakama, Keikogi and basic armour to cover the target areas, gloves, body and chest, head, and a groin guard basically...Although Kendo's origins were in Kenjutsu, one could argue that it is somewhat removed from "fighting" and closer to a competition, although how far along the scale you go depends upon your teachers... Iaido is associated with Kendo for a large majority but is independantly taught as well. It focuses on the drawing of a sword (A live blade or an imitation of one), the use of it to cut at an imaginary opponent and the resheathing of it after the "kill"...Speed is not primary, although it is important. A few hundred years ago, Iai was a form of training used to teach one how to handle the blade, kill with it, and remain alert throughout...."Iai" has a rather more complex meaning that "Drawing" (Which is "Nuku/抜く" in Japanese), and a good idea of the meaning would be "being in place" (With the idea that you're alert, focused and capable of doing what you need to do..Drawing a sword, or anything else..). 居合 are the kanji, but the meaning is not a simple one. In modern Japan it is used to describe the art of sword drawing. (In previous times this was called various things, including "nukiuchi/抜打", and "Batto/抜刀" meaning respectively "drawing and striking" and "Drawing sword"..). Kenjutsu is the origin of Kendo ("Kenjutsu/剣術" and "Kendo/剣道" both share the same kanji meaning sword). Rather than focusing on certain strikes to limited areas it covered the basic use of the sword in battle, and as such had a rather more wide ranging coverage...Kenjutsu differs from "Iaijutsu" (The fore-runner of Iaido) in that the sword is presumed to be already drawn from the scabbard and ready for use..Kenjutsu practice normally relies upon "bokuto" or "bokken" (Both meaning "Wooden sword"), and doesn't make use of Shiai (Or competitions) for training, but tends to use kata or forms. Kumdo is simply the Korean for "Kendo"..Using the same kanji (Chinese characters) and roughly the same rules, although there are some differences apparently..It's close enough to be the same to all intents and purpose.. Ummm....Apologies if this is close to what "TheCount" said, but there were a few things I wanted to add..And the above should cover them.. Regards.
Thank you for your help and knowledge. P.S. I tried Wiki, and other places on the net but came up pretty short.
Remember above all to do your research. There's a lot of BS in weapon arts. Be aware of what your goals are. Do you want flowery moves, or do you want to be able to actually fight with a bladed weapon? Remember that as long as you're getting good instruction in a legitimate sword art, you're better off than getting no training at all most of the time. Find out what sword arts are in your area and take a free class if they offer them. If you can tell us your general location, we can tell you about good schools in that area if any of us are from there. Another good option is finding a good classical fencing salle, such as a the Northwest Academy of Arms. It's rarer than hen's teeth, but you will learn timing and proper attention to form and poise, which will help you an any other art you pursue. Good luck in your search! Best regards, -Mark
Depends on what you mean by "beating the crap out of each other with padded weapons." I agree that much of what you'll find on youtube, in terms of "shinai clubs" and the like won't teach you much about actual swordplay. But the gearing up with sword approximations (be they kendo shinai, fencing foils, or padded sticks) will certainly teach you plenty about timing, distance, angles, etc. Just like any other form of sparring would. It won't convey the reality of getting run through with a sword, certainly. But that's one of those lessons you generally only learn once. And briefly. Stuart
I guess that was a bad way of wording it. I like to use the test theory; You go to school and on the first day you are given a test- do your best. The second day you are given a similar test- do your best and so on. Eventually you will learn the answers to the test but it would make a stronger foundation if you were taught the basics of the test and then learn how to apply them in practice. Let me know what you think? Thank you Nick
If you want to believe that you would have had what it takes to survive in a real historical combat environment (somtning you never will know for sure anyway), you will need to train as you would have fought. You would allso need to aquire basic skills in timing, distancing and the consept of the centre-line. After sparring with people who do sparring as competition, I see that they are better in me in theese basic skills, as they've emphasized the full-speed competition-aspect, but they lack the knowledge and mastering of actual techniques (said differently, their skills reflects the limitations in the safety-rules in their given sporting-system). Me, on the other hand could blurb for page after page on Fiore di Liberi and german manuals, but the free-sparring-dudes would still beat the crap out of me. So in order not to go in the same trap as me (or the competition-sparrers), I would do a bit of both. As you're interrested in EMA, I would suggest that you tried to do both Kendo and Shinto-Ryu-Kenjutsu. And finally; if you want to be good, you'd need to put the effort into it. I only train sparring and HEMA 2-3 hours/week, and that's barely enough to improve, allthough I allso train my body in strength and constetution in addition to this. If you want to be as good in swordplay as olympic swimmers are at swimming, you'd need to put the same amount of effort into it :evil:
He didn't say where he is from. Shinto-ryu anything isn't exactly something you can find in every other neighborhood. He'll have to find whatever form of kenjutsu or iai is around him or else make changes to his life.
You're probably right. My point was that IMHO, if he wants to be a good swordfighter, he should get to train some deacent theory (IMO Katori shinto ryu, or similar traditonal ma's) and some deacent pracsis (IMO kendo)
There's also a few schools of Shim Gum Do which came over from Korea and is based in Boston. While I feel the dispensation of the art has been far from perfect my experience with it has been awesome. Worth a looksee if Boston is close enough for you to get to. sword is the primary art but there's several derivatives all taught under the same roof with different time requirements of training in sword or open hand (similar to Wing Chun one master related to me). http://shimgumdo.org
You are both right, I just recently relocated to the central Penn. Area and like the area. So as far as moving somewhere to train, that is not an option. I do have a Iaido dojo fairly close by and want to check it out but I still have a year or so that I am going to be fully dedicated to my open hand. What are your thoughts on Iaido?
The question really is what do you think of Iaido, get yourself along to a class and take a look, only really you can decide if its something that interests you. If you are in Pennsylvania then you could try Yamato Yagyu-Kai who teach Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (a combination of Iaijutsu, Kenjutsu and Taijutsu) which is in Philadelphia. Or there is a Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Iaijutsu school close to Lancaster.
