Hi everyone. I started Goju Ryu in January of this year and one thing has kind of bugged me... I decided to take the super studious way of learning karate between classes and joined Goju Ryu Academy online and I also got loads of videos of Morio Higaonna Sensei doing our katas. I was certain this would ensure I'd learn things exactly how they had to be and eventually be super awesome in class. The thing is... these videos often vary in timing during katas from what we do in the dojo. The kiai is sometimes not even on the same place and the bunkais also vary slightly. Is that normal? I've ended up ditching the videos for the most part because they just leave me confused in class. I know I shouldn't over-think things... I'm getting better at that, but it does bother me that there doesn't seem to one correct way to go about it.
Sadly it is pretty normal practice for katas to be modified over time by various organisations, personal opinions and general politics. It's one of the things that really, really bugged me when I studied karate as, to me, it doesn't make much sense. Have you asked your instructor why certain changes are there in the kata?
Thanks, I appreciate the response. I haven't, but the next time he asks if there are any questions before class I think I will. I was too shy earlier when I was a confused white belt. I just wanted to hear from some folks outside the dojo first.
Go for it, you'd be amazed how many little gems you pick up listening to what others have to say (especially folks with a fair amount of experience) . EDIT: Just to add though, bunkai between different karateka will vary massively because of perception, personal preference, differences in opinion and so forth. Personally I feel it's quite a good thing though. Some of the variations you can find out there are simply excellent. Like a lot of Iain Abernethys' work.
Yes, this is normal. Even the widely taught kata like Bassai Dai are demonstrated differently by various senseis. My shihan told me that this is a very natural thing and much like a signature. If you want to learn the kata the way your instructor teaches them, ask to videotape him doing the kata after class from several angles. :hat:
Lol, that's true . I was always of the view though that the kata "template" shouldn't be meddled with to give people something similar to work from, then as you go further with the training you add your own little touches. I know I only studied karate for a few years and I don't have the experience a lot of you folks do, but what I kept seeing was my instructor constantly getting updates from his instructor over minor changes that the organisation they were with kept making which bugged me.
In the case of karate the updates are often backdates and tend to go in cycles. You see knee raises converted to kicks then back to knee raises again. Uke techniques switching between chest and head height etc. Stances switching is another good wheeze.
Never had that in krotty, but it has happened in Shinkendo. The changes seem minor, but it's difficult to unlearn old stuff. :bang:
I've found that a lot of kata change comes from the bunkai. You'll do the kata different because you see the application differently.
Absolutely... As a general principle form should follow function. ..... With some consideration for consistency within the general class structure.
Is it possible the original kata versions weren't understood fully or correctly, then adapted and a bit of re invention of the wheel?
Part of what it boils down to is whether you believe karate is static, or meant to evolve. If it is static, then the kata shouldn't change, and variations are misunderstandings of the original. If it is meant to evolve, then they should change to reflect how they are being applied over time.
It also depends on whether you believe 1 move =1 principle or application. That's not really the way movements work. Most things will teach several principles and have lots of different applications which in turn may depend on other elements within a form. How they are drilled or emphasised in kata depends on how much an instructor knows (or doesn't know) and what they choose to emphasise. Variations usually stem from understanding or a lack of understanding.
I'm inclined to agree with you. We fall into the other line of belief, where a motion in a kata could be used different ways, and the same motion appears in different kata in order to be show them differently.
One of the problems with GKR (assuming that lizzy1e is a GKR student, which I could easily be mistaken about) is that typically asking questions is not encouraged. There may be exceptions in some dojo but the general policy is to discourage students from having enquiring minds - they might enquire too much and expose gaping holes in their instructors' knowledge. On a different note, the whole thing about changes in kata... In my experience changes in kata that are disseminated throughout an organisation are very rarely done for reasons of practically. I would advise always asking why the change has been made. Then examine critically the reasons given. Don't just assume your sensei knows best, if the reasoning is sound they should generally be able to articulate the rationale to you in a way that is believable and sensible. Mike Mike
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW4LiCW50dU"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW4LiCW50dU[/ame] The above video is how we are taught Bassai Dai. This is a (although old) video that Shihan made many years ago. Nothing about the kata has changed, thankfully. I have been looking at a few other videos of the same kata, to try and see some variations, and I found this awesome video group kata video from Italy. The kata is also Bassai Dai, but looks to be wildly more complicated than what we are being taught here: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-86wZ4-RnU"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-86wZ4-RnU[/ame] I really don't pay attention to what style of karate I am learning - I am there to learn to defend myself, not look at other styles and compare what I am learning to these. Hence if you asked me whether I know the difference between Shokotan and Goju Ryu (as I have heard mentioned) I wouldn't have the foggiest. I actually disagree, being a GKR student myself, I am probably the only student who questions everything they learn. Why we do a block a certain way, why a strike cannot be done differently (and usually I will explain why I think it could be different) and what the Bunkai is for certain techniques in my kata. I question everything - how am I to learn if I don't? One of my Sensei's (whom I absolutely idolise) tells me off for questioning her, but that tends to be because I question her in class (such as mumbling to myself that blocking a strike over the back leg doesn't work as it doesn't turn our hips off, leaving us expose to an attack) and not after class, like I should. On occasion she is unable to answer a question, she asks the Regional Instructor and then returns to me with the answer. I end up learning the answer to my question, and she learns something too. There have been times when an instructor isn't 100% sure what a technique is used for (you must keep in mind that many instructors are several years away from black belts) they will always ask, as the strive to discover the answer for us. Not sure what club Lizzy belongs to, but if it is GKR, then ask away. She has the right to ask questions - just don't be obnoxious about it.
Hi Noomi This version hasn't fallen far from the Shotokan tree. I'd have been interested to see him perform at a more normal speed. I confess there were a couple of changes from the Shotokan original that really grated on me. I'm guessing this was a ****o Ryu version. Rather more interesting IMO and, whilst still being a thoroughly modern kata, I think somewhat closer to older versions of the kata than either the Shotokan or GKR version. Things may be different where you are, but I can assure you that here in the UK - at least in the recent past - GKR students were actively discouraged from asking questions. They weren't allowed to ask their instructor questions. And they certainly weren't allowed to ask their instructor what grade they were! I've even heard of them being forbidden from merely speaking to higher grades. Perhaps things have moved on since then, I'd like to think that were the case. But given that you've mentioned instructors being years away from dan grade I can only assume that this leopard has not changed its spots. I can also assure you that I've heard GKR students complain about kata being changed. But GKR is not unique in that area. Lots of systems do it. The question is why? Don't get me wrong, I'm not fundamentally opposed to change. But I do believe that change should be for the right reason. In the vast majority of cases it simply isn't -typically kata are changed by people who don't understand them for reasons that are not to do with combat effectiveness. Mike
these are somewhat hard to reconcile . as you've seen, there can be massive differences even between the same material as done in different styles, let alone between their "proprietary" krotty-chopping stuffs, so to speak. as mike said, that is the ****o-ryu version of bassai-dai, performed to a competition standard (ie tending towards flashy, pretty and physically demanding). for comparison, here are bassai-dai from shotokan, and from ****o-ryu in a non sport context, and an older version of the same kata from the tomari-te lineage (because as you'll find out, many kata are actually variations of older forms, and some form entire "family trees" of related kata, notably the okinawan passai and kushanku forms, from which bassai-dai and kanku dai stem, among others): [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLYwQJohMyo"]Bassai Dai by Kawasoe sensei 8th Dan,MORE ABOUT KARATE AT :www.keishinkandojo.org - YouTube[/ame] [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-JpsiKSYKU"]Bassai Dai ****o Ryu - YouTube[/ame] [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU0D7_1yHA8"]Passai - YouTube[/ame]
Hi Mike. The reason my local area doesn't have many black belts is because GKR only came to my area about six or so years ago. Not enough time to get everyone to black belt. So far we have four - others have come close but have quit, for personal reasons, or just because they lost interest. In other regions, where GKR has been around for longer, you will see more black belts, especially in and around Melbourne or Sydney. In the rural areas, there are not that many - which is why we start training lower grades as instructors. I don't have an issue with it, as most of them know what they are talking about. If they don't know, they ask. Also, its pretty easy to work out what grade a Sensei is by seeing their grade kata. As for actually asking a Sensei what grade they are, I wouldn't ever think this was acceptable at all -why is it important to know what grade someone is?
