Differences in ITF

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by LewisHolder, Dec 11, 2013.

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  1. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    This is a good summary by Master Weiss.
    I would add:
    GM Jung Woo-Jin of TKD Times (A-9-4) is an advisor to,the ITF-NK, but not an actual voting type member. He is independent & Dr. Kimm's new book lists him as a world leader of the TKD independents.
    There were several court battles in Vienna Austria, home of the ITF since 1985. The legal wins went back & forth. However the last couple of years saw a final appeals court decision that gave the win to Prof. Chang Ung & the ITF-NK (#3). The ITF-V (#1) had to pay over 110,00€ in court costs, fines, legal fees or whatever. They also lost the fight for the ITF HQs, which is expensive real estate property. So legally, as far as Austria is concerned, the real or true ITF is the one led by Prof. Chang Ung, the one who Gen. Choi wanted to succeed him. He was reelected in 2009.
    The true ITF is whatever one that any individual feels is best for them. Several have left 1 ITF for another or even the other! Some simply go indenpendent. All are trying their best to preserve Gen. Choi's legacy & teachings. Of course there are variations on what that exactly means or where particular emphasis should be. But buyer or student beware. You must do your diligence in seeking out affiliation. The bloodline, the wish of Gen. Choi or a group that advocates democratic principles who tried to follow the written constitution of the ITF.
     
  2. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Agreed
     
  3. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Power Generated By Taekwon-Do Techniques By Use Of The Sinewave
    by Tim Murphy


    Testing was conducted to measure the power generated using various Taekwon-Do techniques. The aim of the test was to compare different methods of performing the techniques, namely using sine wave and without using sine wave.

    The apparatus used was a kick bag designed to measure the force at which it was being hit.

    The following techniques were tested; sitting stance punch, walking stance reverse punch, and a regular boxing style punch. Each punch was performed 4 times and an average was calculated. Each punch was performed with both left and right hands. Two subjects were used, both ITF black belts (one formerly ITF-C and the other person is with ITFNK).

    Test Results and Analysis

    Sitting Stance Punch
    Both subject’s punches with one hand were harder using the sine wave and their punches with the other were weaker using it. However the differences in power generated were small, as low as 0.25% in one case. On average, the difference in power generated using the sitting stance punch with and without sine wave was negligible.

    Walking Stance Reverse Punch
    One subject punched harder with one hand using sine wave and harder with the other without it. The other punched harder without sine wave with both hands. On average, the force generated from a reserve punch in walking stance without using the sine wave was 4% higher than the same technique using sine wave.

    Boxing style punch
    Subjects were required to assume a regular boxing style stance and punch from their back hand using standard boxing technique (i.e. hands up, chin down, turning shoulder into the punch etc). On average, this type of punch was found to be 30% more powerful than the traditional punches.

    Limitations of the testing
    Only two test subjects were used in the test. To obtain more accurate and comprehensive results a larger number of people would need to be tested.

    Only three techniques were used in the test. For the sake of simplicity three basic punches were tested. To give a broader overview of the use of sine wave in Taekwon-Do the test could be expanded to include other techniques.

    Conclusions
    Based on the results obtained, there is no evidence to suggest that techniques performed using the sine wave are more powerful than techniques performed without the sine wave. On average, techniques done without the sine wave were found to be 0.16% more powerful than those done with it.
    Both methods of performing traditional punches were found to generate significantly less power than a standard boxing style punch.



    Many thanks to Tim for allowing us to add his tests to the article. Tim can be contacted at the University Of Limerick Kick Boxing Club
     
  4. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Just a point of information here to clarify:
    The ITF was teaching a vertical movement of the hips as early as the 1960s. They called it knee spring or natural movement.

    So if the T.A.G.B. is doing hip twist, they would be a Chang Hon Korean Karate like org, doing ITF forms.
     
  5. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Apologies, I wasn't clear in that post; hip twist and knee spring/natural movement is exactly how I am taught within TAGB.

    Mitch
     
  6. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Quote: Originally Posted by Van Zandt
    My guess is they still teach that silly sine wave nonsense.
    SW is the least understood concept of a theory that is roundly critiqued by many who were never even taught it or do not have a more complete understanding of where it fits into the whole Theory of Power!
     
  7. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    The lost or forgotten pattern U Nam Hyung, was named after the 1st president of South Korea. KoDang, the replaced pattern was named after the defector 1st leader of North Korea, the Patriot Cho Man-Sik. If the USA & USSR didn't intervene, he may have been the leader of a unified Korea, which most likely would have been all communist. JuChe was offered to replace KoDang, as JuChe is the NK state ideology. However the ITF TKD pattern definition has only a generic statement about one's own self reliance.
    There was simply no way Gen. Choi could name a pattern after Kim Il-Sung. But there is no getting around the fact that NK fully embrace & supported the ITF & Gen. Choi. As Gen. Choi himself would say often, if no DPRK, there would be no ITF. The support that NK he gave to Gen. Choi & the ITF allowed a counter-balance to the support the ROK govt in South Korea gave the WTF. It also countered the loss of many loyal Korean masters that the SK KCIA forced to leave the ITF by replacing them with hundreds from NK over the years. NK & other communist bloc nations also lobbied on behalf of the ITF to get into the Olympics, unsuccessfully obviously.
     
  8. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    There is no doubt that SW was incorporated as another way to make ITF TKD unique or different that its karate roots.
    That being said, SW is 1 part of 1 of 6 factors of the ToP, that is taught to be used in isolation during fundamental movements. Of course patterns are fundamental movements of offensive & defensive techniques in a sequence. Also it must be clearly understood, that while ITF TKD is a KMA of SD, it is also an Art, whose stated primary purpose is much more than just the physical development. As such, SW adds to a part of the Art that is associated with the art aspect.
     
  9. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Part of the reason for the stereotype is that the WTF is all about sport. Period, end of story! In SK it is their national sport. It was promoted that way & then as an international sport that had a global following to get into the Olympics. They did that, as you know & because of that success, there was a price to pay.
    Westerners do not really understand, as TKD was taken abroad INTIALLY as a KMA for SD by the ITF & Gen. Choi. This coincided with the mass craze fad of the MAs that hit the West in the late 1960s & 1970s. So most, if not all DoJangs in the West are SD in a focus, as well as their promotion, as that is what many Westerners look for. So yes, a WTF or Kukki TKD school in the UK will of course have sd, sweeps, takedowns, releases, etc, etc! But you will not find that in the KTA schools in SK. It is sport, the elementary, secondary & colleges all have sport teams & they drill I. Sport sparring, period.
    Of course now with the introduction of the WTF WCs in Poomsae, that is another specialization. But the MA schools in SK come under a different regulatory body. All TKD comes under the KKW & require a KKW Instrucors license & minimum of 4th Dan.

    There are reasons why stereotypes exist!
     
  10. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    This seems to be the trend or the focus as well of many ITF schools
     
  11. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    I agree that patterns have limited carryover to live application.
    (By live application I assume you mean real fighting)
    Patterns to me are the signature of TKD, in essence Gen. Choi's penmanship. They are to me, as you alluded to, more on the art side.
    But again, you don't seem to be understanding that SW is merely 1 part of 6 factors of the theory of power. You are making a monumental mistake by inserting SW into combat or advocating SW in patterns into combat, without understanding more fully the ITF TKD system, syllabus, goals, etc.
    Please remember that while ITF TKD was started in the military as a mix of the MAs of the time for combat & military spirit, it has morphed into more than just physical sd. Therefore it is logical to assume that since it is not limited to just combat sd, there are more efficient ways to train for street combat. That being said, street combat training will not generally impart all the other aspects that ITF TKD looks to develop in their students!
    But again, SW as part of the greater theory of power, must be incorporated into the rest of the instructions, especially when it comes to realism!
     
  12. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    Reason or not (and I take your point), stereotypes aren't a useful or accurate way to assess an individual school.
     
  13. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Couldn't agree more!
    The best way to assess an individual school is to be knowledgeable in what you are looking for & compare said school to others in the area. Sadly most people, parents included, do not really know what to look for when picking a MA school. You must do your homework & then take time to go around, visit each school, watch classes, talk to both students & instructor, as well as maybe take some free or introductory lessons before actually deciding on which school to pick.
     
  14. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Ok thanks for clarifying that!
    ;)
     
  15. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Yes me too, I agree as it does certainly feel more powerful. But then again I do SW within the larger teachings of the theory of power, following the 9 training secrets of TKD.
    SW is only 1 part of 6 aspects of the ToP. Why do so many who don't understand & connect all the teachings criticize it so much?
     
  16. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    We will agree to disagree on the replacement issue. As we know SK Korean Instructors spread TKD to perhaps over 100 countries under the ITF. Over the years I have qqueried as to the location of any NK instructors. It seems there were a few in some former Eastern Block countries and a few in China near the NK border. Perhaps not more than a dozen total. No where near the number and scope of SK Instructors and the number of countries they spread TKD to under the ITF.
     
  17. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    TKDstudent-

    Are you and I acquainted?
     
  18. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Yes of course, as long as the SW is incorporated along with the other factors of the theory of power & the training secret of TKD. The proof is in when someone looks to do a power break. They almost always follow many of the concepts of the above 3 lessons from the General.


    As Master Weiss has tried to explain & successfully I might add, for those of us who know SW & Gen. Choi's ToP & training secrets, that some do exaggerate & these difficult concepts, taught often by people who lacked good teaching & communication skills has at times led some to do more, incorrectly. I have not seen anyone here trying to defend the over exaggeration!

    Why not? Of course it is the same type of concept. But the big mistake is that not every puncher, boxing or otherwise, punches with full power every single time! Realism & what happens in reality simply does not allow it, as too much is at stake. That is why boxers will flick out a jab often & not throw a haymaker knockout punch until the opponent is sufficiently hobbled or otherwise preoccupied to enable such a roundhouse punch to work!

    Yes I do believe it is for artistic purposes to an extent. Sorry that you do not more fully understand SW, as it is a very good training tool, whose theory teaches someone how to put more into their blows, of course along with the other REQUIREMENTS of the 6 factors of the ToP & the 9 secrets of training in Gen. Choi's TKD! However it is for training fundamental movements in isolation & of course stringing them together in patterns, as the Tuls are just fundamental movements link in an established sequence. But then of course, we must also understand Gen. Choi's warning about training with realism, which is almost always ignored by so many ITFers, especially after the Pioneers, who were fighters, left the ITF. His almost sole focus with his teachings were the ToP, training secret of TKD & his patterns!
    You also have to understand that ITF TKD is not focused solely on combat street fighting & looks to impart so much more to those that follow its system, other than sd.
    So yes, of course there are better ways to focus on combat! If that is one's goal, seek a street combat school & not a traditional Eastern MA, jmho
     
  19. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    I have noticed a trend, or what seems to be the way patterns are now being done by students of the ITF-V. The movements seemed to have been slowed down, almost looking like the student gets stuck with a sort of short mental lapse in knowing what move comes next. While I think their Technical Committee is awesome, I do think that their emphasis is slowly having an unintended side effect. When I see some of them perform, it seems they are not martial artists, performing martial art moves, but rather technical artists, trying to conform to a set standard which focuses more on ending position, then generating raw or maximum power during the movement. So at times the movements look like they are being posed, instead of executed, if that makes sense.
    The ITF-C seems to be more concerned with power generation, which I like, agree with & is my focus. The ITF-NK seems to be in the middle. I like the ITF-V's technical instructions that graphed out & explained SW with the initial down motion being referred to as relax, up, down. This is what I have been saying for years!
    In GM Park's days with the ITF, he was Secty Genl & Chair of the Instruction Committee. He traveled the world teaching IICs when they were 2 weeks long. He lived in NK for 7 months teaching that special instructors course for the 1st class of NK instructors, who went onto teach all around the world, mostly in the socialist & communist countries. He taught UP/DOWN. When he left Gen. Choi started to emphasize the initial down, which he always did when he performed, but they never articulated it. So now he did & it apparently was a way to discredit the great loss that GM Park was, who took massive numbers of people with him! But in fairness to Gen. Choi, when he taught, he always relaxed between movements, as he required this as 1 of his 9 secrets of training TKD!
     
  20. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Quote: Originally Posted by stuckTKD
    That is your opinion Van, but in no way is it useless, why is this thread TAGB biased? In your part anyway.

    Sine wave is not just the movement it is scientifically proven!

    Me & you both!
    ;)
     
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