Differences between KSB and KS?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Herbo, Sep 10, 2010.

  1. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    I can't stand BJJ...But for largely different reasons, I'm sure. I will outright criticize their lack of stand up game, period. They (as a generalization) don't even have great "take down" skills IMHO.
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    HOWEVER! If you actually get on the ground with a legitimate BJJ player, I say good luck to you! Which brings me to why I don't like BJJ...If you get on the ground with any REAL practitioner, you're SOL.

    I spent about a year studying Gracie jujutsu (or if you prefer, jiu jitsu :p) twice a week, just to get familiar with what I was dealing with. I'm all about giving credit where it's due...I don't like it, but they have the best material available for ground work...period.
     
  2. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    i like their take on self defense. the bjj style allows for someone to get in a great position to use all the cool stuff we learn. kind of like how learning hubud or mantis trapping opens up alot of possibilities. i am all for learning different sensitivity drills.
     
  3. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    As I see it, different BJJ instructors tend to have their own preferences. You don't say who you actually trained with, but I am quite astounded that you believe they 'all' lack a stand-up game! I tried to find a video clip I used to have on my computer that would have provided you and other MAPpers with a different perspective, but sadly I can't find it at the moment. It may have been on my old laptop, alas now sadly deceased!
     
  4. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    Pressure points aren't banned in ufc or bjj competitions, in fact i've seen many practitioners use elbows into the inside of the thigh to open up guard. You just won't see many others because in the time it takes to hunt for pressure points you could be armbarring/choking someone.

    And as for the dirty tricks, that really require no training, they didn't work for this guy

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-srqZb7Kbg"]YouTube - Rorion Gracie spars a Hapkido instructor.flv[/ame]
     
  5. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Not knocking anything you were getting at, herbo (in fact, I agree with you!), but I think it's pertinent to mention that if you have to "hunt for pressure points" then you probably have no business trying to use them in a *live* confrontation, FWIW.



    PS: nice video, BTW. :cool:

    EDIT:
    Just a guess on my part, but it seems like that HKD guy rarely, if ever, practiced his ground game and was therefore easily overwhelmed by a BJJ blackbelt, FWIW.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  6. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    I'd agree that he probably didn't practice much ground work, nor did most martial artists pre-1993, or so I've been led to believe.

    However in that same breadth, I've seen many people be told that to grapple you just need to adapt your standing techniques.Although this may be true for techniques such as Kwan Juhl Ki 12 i.e. a Kimura, the result is often that these practitioners have no concept of positional dominance, gripping control etc.

    I honestly believe that saying "oh well, I might have been tapped X times in a row but in a fight I'd just eye gouge him" does not help matters, as the person who would be in the best position to eye gouge would be the grappler with the dominant position.
     
  7. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    I was having a bit of a hard time conveying my meaning here, Pugil. The "generalization" bit in my post, was an attempt to convey a blanket statement to imply that there are exceptions, as there are ALWAYS exceptions. IMHO it never comes down to what art you train in, but HOW the INDIVIDUAL trains ;-)

    I am NO expert on BJJ, hell I can't even portend to be that well informed. Admittedly I only played/dabbled on the mat for about a year with a very talented instructor. I rolled with the regular students routinely, and proudly held my own more than half of the time LOL

    I'm not going to play into name dropping, because the instructor IS a friend of mine, and I think the world of him and would not want anyone to take my remarks as anything personal against him. We have our differences of opinion and have versed them well to one another, but that doesn't prevent us from sharing what we know ;-)
     
  8. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I agree, herbo! Well said. :happy:


    Funny you should say this, since most of the ground sparring done by KSW people (in the USA at least) dried up, more or less, prior to the mid-1980's (not that there were scores of them doing it anyway :D).
     
  9. Little Robin

    Little Robin Valued Member

    I remember attending a Kuk Sool Won event in Detroit just several years back before HQ took over all tournament hosting, sometime in the late 90's I think. The school owner there (who trained alongside me under SajaNim years ago) hosted a KSW tournament and then right afterward hosted a grappling tournament.

    There was good representation from area BJJ and other JJ clubs, and (aside from quite a few torn black uniforms) the local Detroit KSW participants did fairly well, winning over half the events if I recall correctly. Afterward I came away thinking that the KSW techniques really do introduce you to a lot of good applicable joint lock principles - even when used on the ground.

    Also I remember back in the day what we called "Kuk Sool Sparring", where any technique you were taught was fair game to use in a sparring match. Not easy!!!
     
  10. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    I'm kind of sad that this thread decended into another sport grappling vs th3 str33t arguement, although I had my fair share to say on the subject.

    Hopefully this thread may be necro'd at a later date when Saja finishes the videos he spoke about and we can learn a bit more.
     
  11. Little Robin

    Little Robin Valued Member

    O.K....I'll see if I can respond to your initial questions, although I've been living away from SajaNim's dojang for MANY years but was a part of the "Ancient Fighting Arts - Kong Shin Bup" School before and during it's transition to being part of the Kuk Sool Won. (Wasn't around for the...well you know...)

    1. Yes, KSB did use a numbered system that closely resembled the Kuk Sool/Hwarang Do type sets. This is most likely how GM Pack was taught them as well. Sorry, I can't recall if English or Korean names were used for the sets.

    2. The grappling that I remember was the Kuk Sool Won textbook material, probably due to my relatively low rank when I started, but I do know that SajaNim had no problem adding much more detail to each technique than what was straight curriculum. If he says he's teaching more than that know - then he's teaching more than that now.

    3. We most definitely were involved with open tournaments! SajaNim's were the best around - and he made us STUDY how to run a tournament from top to bottom! You didn't pass his course and testing on all aspects of running a tournament...you just didn't judge.

    As far as studying "combat sports" I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I do recall the SajaNim would just tell us to practice our techniques to the best of our ability and then the "sport aspect" would take care of itself. Practicing for tournament combat specifically was a very rare event, if it happened at all. Judging by the success of many of his students I'd say the approach was prudent.

    I do remember the initial excitement around getting involved with Kuk Sool Won. Here was the chance to study with one of our teacher's teachers! SajaNim had nothing but the highest praise for Kuk Sa Nim and was very impressed with the overall structure of Kuk Sool Won. If I recall correctly he took on a substantial reduction in Black Belt rank and had to work his way back up over time. The senior colored belts didn't go up in rank for a very long time as well.

    There was from the get go however, a great deal of overlap with the existing KSB material and the KSW material. Some of the forms were pretty much the same, others were dropped entirely, the self defense techniques were similar (at my belt level anyway), the belt color system was different, and there was a more linear, harder approach to the overall execution of KSB. From what I heard from the higher ranks the Black Belt testing was truly "old school"!!!

    That's my limited recollection anyway. Hope that's more what you were looking for.
     
  12. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    :topic: OFF-TOPIC :topic:


    Not to clog the thread with even more off-topic jabber, herbo, but wouldn't TRUE 1337 sp34k have been to also flip the position of the E and the H in the word, 'THE'? (i.e. t3h str33t) :D :jester:

    But while we're waiting on the video, allow me to throw in one last comment about the grappling element being infused into KSW tourneys. While many a dojang did employ the "Kuk Sool Sparring" mentioned by Robin (in post #49), most tournaments I ever saw usually went with standard kick/box type rules. The one exception that comes to mind is with the tournaments sponsored by master Sims, when he was doing his stint at West Point. He successfully mixed standard kick/box fare with grappling when it came to the sparring portion of the competition (they were also OPEN tournaments and I believe he had a few of the local MA clubs -that is, non-WKSA MA schools in the area- "qualify" their BBs for judging this particular type of sparring). Everyone that ever experienced those tourneys but hadn't previously been exposed to this type of sparring, always had good things to say about it, and KSW people were especially thrilled WRT how it better represented what KSW was supposed to exemplify. This is why I can understand the exodus of the younger generation moving from KSW to the likes of BJJ (while reading some older threads the other day, I came across a statement that it's quite common to hear a KSW practitioner say, "wow! I've seen the light" and never look back after dabbling with BJJ, while the opposite is practically unheard of). If the ground game in KSW had been kept up, I think this phenomenon to prefer BJJ over KSW would be downplayed tremendously. As always, YMMV.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2010
  13. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Given the current conditions on the KSW board throwing around accusations of theft is unacceptable. Please do not repeat this on the board.

    Mitch
     
  14. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Can you clarify this please? I understand that you might not want UNFOUNDED accusations...but what about when there is ACTUAL theft? Pointing out actual theft is unacceptable? Even though there is legal precedent to support it?

    If you read the thread where this originated...it had to do with the business concept of "goodwill" and if goodwill can be stolen. This is not a made-up term. And it was very much on-topic to the franchising/IP issue related to the WKSA. IP is absolutely a part of goodwill and using the work of someone else to benefit without remuneration paid to the parent org has been labelled as theft by the US courts.

    FWIW, I never accused anyone of car theft or home theft or even theft of candy from a store! LOL. No...I have always used the term narrowly and have defined it to goodwill theft from the very beginning.
     
  15. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Do not call other members of this board thieves.

    Mitch
     
  16. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Okay. I understand that the MAP KS section is being monitored heavily. Since that time, can you point to me which post where I called specific members on the board thieves? I will edit and apologize. Even in the post you quoted, I didn't call other members of the board thieves. I have tried to remain on-topic when it came to the IP/franchising issue.
     
  17. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I didn't say you had posted it since then. I asked you not to repeat it.

    This discussion is Off Topic. If you want to continue it then please take it to PM.

    Mitch
     
  18. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Thanks for singling it out. If you wanted to discuss this in PM, then you could have sent me a PM. I dont know how to quote your post and make it appear only in your PM box.
     
  19. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Not too very sure what direction this is going, but I did want to comment that there is a very distinct difference between the nature of competition using a grappling/kick-boxing approach and that of using Civilian Arts (aka "self-defense") approach. IMHE I find that folks who pursue a more Civilian Art approach train in intrusive techniques such as "fish-hooks", gouges, fractures and dislocations. Most of these are precluded by rules from being intentionally set-up or applied. This is not to say that one might not shift focus of the KS material to focus more stridently on the concussive techniques including kicks, punches and elbow strikes. The reason I bring this up is that I have often gotten the impression that Master Timmerman's approach (IE KSB) has been to enhance the ability of people to give (and take) concussive material (at least in the early phases). I think he has made this point in his own post. From what I have seen of the KS material there is less focus on such conditioning and practice, but the KS folks apparently do not dissuade practitioners from such training focus if thats what they desire and it does not upset the HWA of a given training environment. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  20. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    Hello LR:
    I think your take on things is a pretty good explanation. I might add that my rate of promoting people before WKSA was much slower; therefore, higher KSB techniques had not been touched. In addition, out of respect to the organization we were following, our school went entirely to the WKSA syllabus of the time. Hence, KSB material was placed in the closet until I left, and it is only of late that I am once again sharing the old KSB material. This was done as a result of doing a "lost KSB technique" seminar at our summer camp, and the consequent demand of the student body to go back to the old ways. This has been a slow process, as I have to clear the cobwebs out of my head lol. Been a long time since I taught this material.

    As far as the insinuation that I stole WKSA material or practices. A number of things I used to do long before KSN came to North America were picked up by WKSA, so this has been a reciprocal exchange of ideas etc. For example, and you touched on tournaments, WKSA did not even have a beye system when they had their first competitions and the early tournaments in SF were a shambles when it comes to finding top competitors. I participated in one ring as a corner judge where the center judge actually had ALL brown belts compete without regard to the age groups. This only came to light when medals were being presented. Since I was the new kid on the block in WKSA (not to confuse this to being new to Kuk Sool), I kept my mouth shut until the tournament director (KJN Suh In Joo) gave me the job of redoing the whole thing.

    Not sure who you are, but you may remember when I was told I could no longer host open tournaments and we ran TWO tournaments side by side. One open, and one Kuk Sool. With more than twice the number of competitors, the open side ran by my people was done many hour before the WKSA folks were done. I do not mention this to degrade anyone, I simply point this out to point out that we had a competent school BEFORE WKSA.

    Many little things were changed as a result of me pointing out problem areas. For example. At the earlier WKSA tournaments in Houston, it was the norm for ALL members of a particular rank to sit around the ring running that color. Since money talked even then, I pointed out to KSN that he had opened himself to a possible law suit for making senior citizens sit on a cold concrete floor for hours waiting to compete. The resulting stiffness made for lack of control and even impacted some health issues. IMHO, Seniors rings should have been done first for safety reasons, and (at least for a while) the powers to be changed the order of events. Similarly, I also pointed out that it lacked wisdom to have kids wait for hours to compete. Kids just do not have the patience to do that, and they become unruly. IMHO, these were just a few of the simple things that no one had bothered to look at back then.

    FWIW, MANY North American school owners made such contributions when WKSA had to "Americanize" their system. It was just not thought of as stealing one way OR the other. It was simply a way of improving things, and that was NOT a one sided affair and certainly not stealing.

    Whenever I mention problems, I am said to be "dumping" on WKSA. Far from it... I am simply expressing my disappointments on some of the things I experienced along the way. I came to WKSA because MY teacher began a system I did not want to get involved with, and we came to an agreement. I stayed the course with KSB, and he worked on Tae Keuk Do. When this happened, I traveled to SF in order to continue the lineage I had followed up to that point. I was demoted because of politics between my Instructor and KSN, but I did not care about rank. I simply want to learn martial arts.

    I left WKSA for reasons many speculate over, but few have knowledge over. It would be very easy to explain and document things; however, I choose not to. The parties involved know what happened, and it is no one else's business. If pushed, I WILL be able to support my position, as I have saved EVERY little bit of evidence. To do this would only satisfy the curiosity of people who do not matter to either side, and I see no value in that. Apparently neither does the WKSA, and that is good enough for me. Being called a thief is NOT acceptable, and I appreciate the fact that the moderators have put a stop to that.

    It is my belief that the blind loyalty that causes such outbursts is not even appreciated by WKSA, as it only leads to the kind of back biting that makes many good people leave. I was pleased to see that such back biting was not in evidence when I joined MAP, and I stated so in my very first posts.

    WKSA does not need its members to defend it, and neither do folks who run other orgs. Most who come to the defence of WKSA (or those who have left) do not know the whole story, and they should just leave it alone. This does not mean we can't express ourselves in a reasonable way, and it certainly should not prevent us from lively discussions. Alas, there are some here who are unable to leave well enough alone, and they just HAVE to have it their way regardless of other reasonable explanations. When this happens, folks on all sides get downright "testy", and the entire site suffers as a result. Sad :(

    I am not adverse to sharing experiences or discuss differences; however, it is NOT my priority to satisfy curiosity of people, and I'll do so whenever I have spare time. There are many differences, and it would take a lot of time to cover them all. If someone has a more specific question, I can deal with that without it taking up too much of my time.
    Rudy
     

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