Differences between KSB and KS?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Herbo, Sep 10, 2010.

  1. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    I will work on making PDF files of the KSB material to black belt and post them on our web site. Perhaps that will give us a chance to see how close the two GMs were in terms of material they taught. I am still not 100%, so this may take a few weeks.
    Rudy
     
  2. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Agreed. No need for disparaging remarks. OTOH, calling a spade, a 'spade' does not constitute 'disparaging remarks' in my book. GM Timmerman has noted before here on MAP, that while he was still within the bounds of WKSA that changes were definitely made to the KSW curriculum, some subtle, others not so subtle (likewise, so have I and many others who I've discussed this topic with IN PERSON). Assuming that alterations to the curriculum continued in the same fashion as happened while he was an active member of WKSA (or even assuming no changes other than the ones he witnessed), could easily back up his assertion (i.e. his OPINION) that KSW has been "diluted" from the way he was originally taught. Having witnessed such actions first hand concerning the "watering down" of the syllabus does not make his assertions hearsay. FWIW
     
  3. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    When I helped move the old WKSA Van Ness Dojang to the next location (I forgot the name of that street, but it may have been Ellis Street), I saved the curriculum and pressure point charts that KSN wanted to throw out. Perhaps Jerry Lee KJN remembers those charts, as that location is where we first met back in '74-75.

    When I compare those charts to some of the later versions, it shows clearly that the system was evolving. FWIW, there is nothing disparaging about that, as the need for evolving is understandable AND sometimes required. For example, the bottle breaking requirement at blue belt level is something that I dropped from the syllabus without worrying about approval. It was MY butt on the line in case something went wrong.
    Rudy
     
  4. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Good move... A shard of glass is the sharpest cutting instrument known to Man!
     
  5. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    Evolution is to be expected and in my opinion encouraged in martial arts. However only when this occurs due to selection of the most efficient techniques and not just to Market a system to a wider audience.
     
  6. KIWEST

    KIWEST Revalued Mapper

    Apart from a woman's tongue that is!:evil:

    And in KJN Ronda B's case.....a woman's fist!
    She really took me by surprise when demonstrating Sun Sohn Mohk and Chirugi Sool (two of the first KSB technique sets) on me, at your dojahng Sajanim.
    It really brought home to me the main difference between KS and KSB apart from the large volume of extra material taught...that is the realism applied when practising. And even in this age of litigation and fatter and fatter lawyers (no offence VM:jester:)...... long may that prevail.
     
  7. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    Pugil KJN. When I was at the workers comp hospital for a few years, I saw a LOT of glass workers who had lost limbs from broken glass. I never realized glass could do such terrible damage to people... I mean a whole leg gone from a broken pane of glass.

    Kiwest KJN:
    The beginning sets of KSB are the linear hard style ones I spoke of. I hope you also got a chance to see the soft style breaking we do.
    rudy
     
  8. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Our top female instructor here in Cambridge used to work on Bumble Bee flight muscles, which she had to dissect. Needless to say, that sort of work has to be done using a microscope. The 'knives' she used were shards of glass.
     
  9. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    Bet that caused a buzz with health and safety..... sorry guys, had to be done.
     
  10. Demdike

    Demdike Banned Banned

  11. KwanJang-KJ

    KwanJang-KJ Valued Member

    Yes sir, no point in changing something great. It is nice to be able to teach a system as it was taught from the beginning (well close to it anyway).
    I plan on continuing the tradition by example as long as my body allows and will always make certain there is someone to carry on when I cannot.

    The KSHKD does allow for the average student base to continue on and occasionally a few move over the the KSB requirements for the extra challenge.

    To Herbo:
    "3. Do practitioners involve themselves in open tournaments, be it striking, grappling or a mixture? Also is there any study of korean combat sports involved e.g. tae kyon or ssireum?"

    I personally still compete with my school in the open circuit both in contact and non contact venues. Because of the way we train, the non-contact tournaments are the most difficult due to possible disqualifications....sigh.
     
  12. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    LOL. That is why I made myself the fleece foot covers way back when (years before GM Rhee put the vinyl safe-t gear on the market). Back in the late 60s and early 70s, most tournaments around here allowed contact (and groin was in); however, they DQ for drawing blood. My "booties" saved me from more than a few DQs :) Don't know how to attach one of my old pics showing the boots, but perhaps Kevin can do it.
    Rudy
     
  13. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    I think you are playing tricks with the timeline and are forgetting that he labelled KS taught by WKSA "today" as diluted. That's why I asked when was the last time he trained at WKSA HQs? What exactly does he consider "today?" Quoting curriculum material from '74-75 certainly doesn't qualify as today, does it? Or even when he decided to leave the WKSA...hasn't many many years come and gone?

    Regarding calling a spade a spade...I agree with you on that point. That is why when I see theft, I'll call it thievery. You can attempt to call it just my opinion...except my opinion just so happens to be backed by legal precedent. But atleast I acknowledge that not everyone necessarily agrees with the Law or chooses to follow it at all times.

    Getting back on topic...I wonder what is considered "extensive grappling" versus non-extensive grappling between the arts? If a person with a Judo background saw it, would it be considered atleast a Gokyu level or if a BJJ player saw it, would it be atleast a blue belt level?
     
  14. KIWEST

    KIWEST Revalued Mapper

    Yes I did. And it was a bit, well, wierd! Very impressive when it worked though.
     
  15. KIWEST

    KIWEST Revalued Mapper

    Actually, he didn't. What he said was that "Too many arts" today are diluted.
    He then went on to say that even KS is not practiced the way it was when he first studied it. Separate sentence. That is not the same as saying that KS is diluted but merely pointing out that it has changed.
    Given Sajanim has recently spent a lot of time with people who have only very recently left the WKSA and also with some who are still in it, I think it entirely reasonable that in general terms he would have quite a good idea how it is being taught today. Certainly enough to make the innocuous comment you refer to.
    "Extensive grappling component" to use the complete phrase (my bold) simply means that there is a wide range of grappling techniques taught. What level it is equivalent to in other arts is rather subjective and would depend entirely upon the skill & experience of the practitioner being watched and the experience and personal opinion of the judo/BJJ person watching. If a number of KSB people competed regularly in open grappling competitions along with JUdo and BJJ practitioners then I guess that might give a more realistic comparison, although I am unsure if this happens?
    Maybe, once I have learnt and practised a reasonable amount of the grappling component in KSB I will try it out on my sister in law who has 12 years of competition experience in Judo and see what she says!:cool:
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2010
  16. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Haha. Separate sentence huh? Sure. :rolleyes: But then you go onto establish my original thought that the information might have been second-hand and therefore hearsay.

    If you want to put it that way...EVERYTHING is subjective to a certain degree. But the reality is completely different. A long time practictioner of KS can probably distinguish between varying quality within KS. For example, a long-term KSooler can look at a white belt performing KCH, a DBN performing KCH and a 3rd dahn performing KCH and probably be able to notice the differences in quality. Meanwhile, a non-MAist off the street who doesn't know much about it might think everyone performed equally well.

    Similarly, experienced folks in the grappling arts also quickly develop an eye as to the level, the quality and the probable effectiveness of grappling that a demonstrator can show.

    So once again, what is considered "extensive?" And simply stating extensive means a "wide range" adds no clue about the nature of it. Perhaps something concrete would be more helpful.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vNlEsAY6og&feature=related"]YouTube - (20)Amazing Gongkwon yusul (Korea jiu jitsu Hapkido)[/ame]

    The grappling shown here is certainly not great but decent. Most BJJ folks are of the opinion that the level displayed here is about a low blue belt level...certainly not a white belt level.
     
  17. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Well it looks pretty good to me, but what do I know, I'm not even a lowly BJJ Blue Belt! Why don't you post a video of you doing some stuff VM, just so we can see the difference! ;)
     
  18. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    If you truly want to know the difference and aren't just trying to instigate an argument...you can easily find out for yourself firsthand. Find a BJJ school near you and roll with people...and experience the difference firsthand! You will find that there is a huge difference between a white belt and a blue belt! And if you choose to roll with a brown or black, those folks are yet on another level.

    If you just want to be a spectator, I don't know what the policies are at specific schools in your area...but many schools here in the US allow interested people to watch.
     
  19. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    It certainly makes one think when a 12 yr old girl breaks a cement block that an adult could not break moments before (this happened during an unscheduled parking lot seminar on breaking I did at Master Gordon's seminar a few years ago). It is all about relaxing, and once you have it down pat, you can easily break 2-3 cement blocks that are NOT spaced.
    Rudy
     
  20. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    The difference between BJJ and Kuk Sool grappling....

    BJJ is too influenced by the UFC and try to appeal to the audience, "roll" with you too much, and dry hump your leg.
    Kuk Sool uses pressure points, ear pulling, hair pulling fish hooks, and the "no rules" mentality to finish the fight, anyway possible. I don't want to get dry humped.

    The astounding difference between BJJ and Kuk Sool.

    BJJ is great at what they do. Kuk Sool is great at what we do.
    Best example: I'm never gonna win against a point sparring TKD Champion. But in a "Free Fighting" arena that involves sweeps, finishes, grappling, and so on I'll have a far better chance than he will. Same goes for BJJ and Kuk Sool: just grappling with none of the before mentioned things used and only their rules, I'd probably be screwed. But I say it to my students all the time "People werent' given a rules to a fight book when they were kids, so don't fight with any...just win by any means necessary".

    I personally don't like BJJ. I've had my experiences with them, and I'm not impressed. Sorry.
     

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