Differences between KSB and KS?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Herbo, Sep 10, 2010.

  1. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    Having read with interest the article on Master Kevin Janisse's website regarding Kong Shin Bup, it left me wondering what the main difference are between KSB and Kuk Sool?
    Understandably they seem to share a lot in common due to both being hapkido derived tkmas. Since we have both grand and chief masters in the art present here I thought a discussion of similarlities and differences would be interesting.

    I have a couple of questions of my own to get the ball rolling;

    1. When teaching techniques does KSB use a numbered system e.g. Ki Bohn Soo 1, or a korean translation of the technique e.g. shoulder wheel being ukeromichigi.
    2. To what extent is ground grappling covered in the curriculum? Is it similar to kuk sool, or is there a more structured curriculum similar to modern grappling arts.
    3. Do practitioners involve themselves in open tournaments, be it striking, grappling or a mixture? Also is there any study of korean combat sports involved e.g. tae kyon or ssireum?

    I hope other members will contribute questions and hopefully we can all learn something. What I don't intend is for this to become yet another my art/GM is better than yours thread, or any of that politcal BS.
  2. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    From what I know, KSB HKD has stringent physical requirements, breaking requirements, and extra forms and technique sets. I'm not sure about anything else.

    Wow...that is little help at all, is it? LOL

    Saja Nim!!!!
  3. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    SJN Timmerman is dealing with some back health issues, and is not able to sit at the computer for much extra right now. I'm sure that when he is able, he'll answer your questions. Perhaps CM Janisse will chime in too :cool:
  4. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Just nit-picking, herbo, but I thought the preeminent combat sport of Korea was TKD. How you could fail to include it in your list of examples is beyond me. (sheesh!) :rolleyes:

    I hope you realize that 2nd sentence was just me joking with you, OK?
  5. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    I meant traditional combat sports, although their current forms are recreations. Although fair play if they do compete in tkd.
  6. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    Tae Kwon Do is pretty good, depending on how you train for it. Their pretty darn ferocious; but that can be said for Kuk Sool as well! It all depends on the person.

    Wow...ANOTHER unhelpful post. I'm just gonna go sit in my corner and be quiet now. LOL
  7. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    Greetings, and my apologies for not responding sooner. OTL mentioned the reasons why I have not been very active of late.

    From where I sit, the main difference between KS and KSB is the fact that KSB students actively practice hard style forms and technique (but with a narrow stance similar to KS), and as such we think of ourselves as Yu Kwan Sool practitioners. In fact, the lower ranks curriculum contains pretty much all hard style linear material. This is not a fluke, but it was designed to be of more use for the average newbie who may have difficulties with soft style and more circular technique. Naturally, there are other differences; however, this is the most glaring difference.
  8. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    And that, Saja Rudy, was pretty much the main difference between Master Mok Yang Kim's 'British Kuk Sool' (which he later named 'Sul Ki Do'). As well as teaching the original (I believe) Kuk Sool syllabus and Hyung, he also taught 8 hard-style Palgue forms, up to black belt, and then Ko-Ryo Hyung at 1st degree, Keum-Gang at 2nd degree, Taebaek at 3rd degree, etc...
  9. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    Pugil KJN:
    I think that they (GMs Mok and Pak) probably worked together at one point, and I think this similarity was not an accident. I thought it highly likely that KSB was little more than what was originally taught by more than a few, and GM Pak just revived it.
  10. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    If you get a chance Saja, perhaps you could answer the numbered questions in my original post. Thanks.
  11. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    Greetings Herbo:
    1.. KSB uses numbers for its techniques; however, I also encourage people to make the technique "fit" for optimum personal use. We use the numbers only to preserve the original technique as it is in our curriculum.

    2.. We have quite an extensive grappling component, and it is practiced more like you might see in modern MA.

    3.. We used to participate a LOT in open tournaments; however, when I got turned off with the cheating going on, I distanced myself from it.

    Since then, I found that the quality of my students went downhill, and I have recently encouraged students to get more involved. It seems that NOT doing tournaments tends to have a negative impact on the efforts students put forth. Hope this helps.
  12. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    Thank you once again Saja, it sounds like you have a very comprehensive program.
  13. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    I actually think it is too much at times, as the average student has a hard time to absorb it in a reasonable time. Definitely not the best curriculum for making a successful career, but it IS good for those who love to learn and train without instant rewards :)
  14. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    Have you ever thought about reworking the curriculum to provide earlier gains then? Considering that you are the grandmaster, I'm sure if you decided to evolve the art in any direction that you wish no one could argue.
  15. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    Hello Herbo:
    When I was named the custodian of KSB, I decided to keep the art as I was taught it, and I hope that my successor will do the same. IMHO, too many arts are diluted in order to keep customers coming back. Even the way Kuk Sool (WKSA) is taught today is not the same as when I first studied it.

    I also teach Kuk Sool HKD (which contains pretty much the same material), and most of my students follow that curriculum. It is a bit more friendly toward students, and it does not require the heavy demands on fitness and breaking that might dampen the spirits of the average student.

    I am glad for that, as it allows me to keep KSB the way I was taught the art; however, it also bring with it the fact that I can no longer perform it as it was meant to be lol. The old bod just won't allow me to continue; therefore, I recently named a younger man to succeed me. I'll still need to continue to teach the higher up material, but I no longer need to lead by example when it comes to climbing 14 foot walls lol.
  16. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    How do you know what is being taught by the WKSA HQs today? When is the last time you stepped into WKSA HQs to train? Or is all the information you're getting second-hand and therefore heresay?

    There is no need to disparage the WKSA and KS and call it diluted.

    Getting back to the topic...the difference between KS and KSB is that the WKSA GM doesn't post disparaging remarks on MAP about how the NKMAA teaches KSB....whereas the NKMAA GM will comment about the WKSA and KS.
  17. Demdike

    Demdike Banned Banned

    Was that meant to read as "hearsay" or "heresy"??

    Or are you calling on the shades of Matthew Hopkins, who always deemed hearsay evidence as proof of heresy?
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2010
  18. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    Glad to see you still know it all VM :)
  19. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    Although there seems to be mainly a dialogue between myself and GM Timmermann here, I hope others will jump in with questions as I see this thread as a great oppertunity to expand knowledge of other kmas. As the recent thread by coma stated, apparently kuk soolers are quite insular.
    What this thread, and the forum in general needs is more talk of technique and the best way to approach things and less snide remarks from those who contribute nothing to the discussion.
  20. Demdike

    Demdike Banned Banned

    going back to Pugil's comments about the apparent similarity between KSB and Sulkido, the Oxford Sulkido school has a breakdown of syllabus and techniques on its website at http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sulkido/ - use the dropdown blue menus.
    It looks like the data isn't complete, but it may help someone draw a better comparison.

    and harking back to another thread - note they are non-competitive / non-tournament oreiented
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2010

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