Difference between Silat, Kali, Arnis, Eskrima??

Discussion in 'Silat' started by balut, Nov 20, 2003.

  1. balut

    balut New Member

    Hi everyone,
    Browsing this board has piqued my interest in Silat and the others mentioned in the subject. My first question is what are the differences?? They all often seem to be mentioned together. Is Silat the parent while Kali, Arnis, and Eskrima could be considered children or cousins? Also, does anyone know of schools or teachers near the Seattle area for any of these styles? Or any video downloads or documents concerning these styles? I'd really love to see what they actually look like in full motion. Thanks in advance for the knowledge!
     
  2. krys

    krys Valued Member

    Arnis, escrima, kalis are different names for a familly of filipino martial art. In Arnis you start learning weapon fighting before training empty hands.
    the idea behind is that armed combat is more important/difficult to master, and the weapon principles-skills will easily transfer to empty hands.


    Silat is found through whole south east asia (yes even Thailand, Cambodia and Laos).
    In silat you are taught unarmed combat first weapons after a few years..... but there are exceptions to the rule. In silat weapons are seen as extensions of the hands...

    Some filipino muslims think that Arnis, Escrima and Kalis are children of Silat but this view is not shared by all filipinos..... :)
     
  3. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

  4. ICT

    ICT Shaolin Malay Silat

    Balut,

    First off Kali is a Silat style! The word Kali is not Filipino but Indonesian. It's the Bahasia language for river. Your suppose to think of the stick as a river continuously flowing no matter what. Throw a boulder in a river and the water will go under, over, through or around it but it will continue to flow. Hence, what your suppose to do in Kali is always flow like water & never stop.

    The Southern Filipino islands like Mindanao were the same people as Indonesia before some European drew an imaginary line across it and proclaimed it's Filipino statehood.

    Arnis & Eskrima are Spanish words. They're Northern Filipino stick fighting mixed with European sword fighting.

    Read about any famous Northern Filipino Arnis or Eskrima stick fighters and you will find that they traveled to the Southern Filipinos to study Kali with the legendary tribes and masters.

    The biggest differences between Kali and Arnis & Eskrima are:

    1) Kali uses mostly Filipino & Indonesian words and Arnis & Eskrima uses mostly Spanish & Filipino words.

    2) Kali has stick fighting and empty hand fighting aspects. Arnis & Eskrima are stick fighting with empty hand disarms.

    3) Kalis empty hand fighting is Silat. Arnis & Eskrimas empty hand disarms can be Karate, Aikido or whatever else they've adopted.

    Now with all that said, there have been a lot of mixing in the last 30 years or so especially with the Northern styles so it is possible to see Silat in a particular Arnis or Eskrima style. Also the Arnis & Eskrima styles have added other Indigenous Filipino arts like Dumog (wrestling) & Sikaran (foot fighting/kicking) into them. As well there are now styles called Arnis & Eskrima that are in fact a Kali style.

    It can be very confusing I know but now you have a better understanding of them.

    Sincerely,
    Teacher: Eddie Ivester
     
  5. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Good post, ICT. But in all fairness, it should also be pointed out that what you posted is just one opinion. There are others. To my knowledge, no one has ever been able to come up with conclusive proof of any of the many theories of the origins of these arts.

    Years could (and have) been spent trying to sort out all the details and still not come up with an answer that everyone would agree with.

    To paraphrase how one guy put it on another discussion group I'm on:

    A group of lions = a pride
    A group of geese = a gaggle
    A group of crows = a murder
    A group of pesilat [or, I'd say, martial artists in general] = a quarrel


    And, as my old Goju-Ryu instructor said:
    "What is Karate?"
    "Fact of the matter is, for good or bad, as my students, you're going to believe that Karate is whatever I tell you it is. So as a teacher, it's my responsibility to make sure I give you good and accurate information."

    Unfortunately, not all instructors are so careful with the information they give out. And, after a couple of generations of oral tradition, it becomes virtually impossible to sort fact from fiction from misunderstanding.

    Mike
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2003
  6. SteveJKDUK

    SteveJKDUK New Member

    From what I've read, there are numerous theories on the origins of the word, "Kali." Some have even argued that it is used as a marketing ploy by some of the US instructors. I think both Silat and the FMAs share many similarities.
     
  7. krys

    krys Valued Member

    First of all my intention is not to sound offensive but my views are a little different on this topic.

    The American government brought the muslim territories into what is now the Philippines...... They were independant areas before..... Actually there were already some muslim settlers in Luzon and the Visayas (ex. Rajah Sulaiman camp in what is now called Intramuros). Different waves of immigration came to the Philippines some from Borneo other from Indonesia.....


    Arnis, Escrima and Kalis are different words for what we understand by filipino weapon arts..... they do not correspond to different martial arts....
    Arnis-Escrima-Kalis are words like Kung Fu to designate local martial arts and not different systems....

    The spanish word Arnis is understood in the whole archipelago, escrima mostly in cebu and some southern islands....

    Nearly nobody in the Philippines uses the word Kalis.....

    The muslim "escrima-arnis-kalis" art I know wasn't called kalis, escrima or arnis before.
    Just "to use the bolo" in the Yakan dialect, in recent times my (silat) grandmaster started to use the words escrima, arnis to talk about it in front of christian filipinos..... but it means the same art.It is very different (by it's footwork) from any other christian system.... but it never was called Kali.

    If muslim filipinos practiced an art called Kali christian filipinos could hardly have learned it from them given the bad relations between both groups....

    There are lots of stories about this..... and most of them are doubtfull....

    Filipinos are sometimes very mischievous :)
    I know one famous player of the Illustrissimo group who once told to some journalists that there are mountain arnis styles, rice fields arnis styles and city arnis styles.... the mountain styles would be long range oriented, the rice field medium range, and the city styles short range oriented.....
    it became published afterwards,
    there are so many false stories on fmas....

    Arnis-Escrima.... are arts meant to kill peoples..... you don't teach this to your enemies. For centuries local muslims raided Luzon the Visayas and Mindanao (as well as Indonesia, Malaysia...) in retaliation for spanish expeditions and also for their economy based on slave labor... both groups were ennemies for centuries and this more or less goes on today.


    Muslim filipinos and lumads would never teach their arts to outsiders, not even to muslims-lumads of other clan, even less to christian who are already masters and could be threats to their clans...
    I had(ve) a hard time learning it and am not allowed to teach it outside the familly.



    1) I know personally players of the Illustrissimo kalis group.... they use many spanish words...

    In my basilan "escrima" we use Yakan words...

    2) Kalis Illustrissimo is a blade art.... it has also empty hands and disarms.....
    Muslim "escrima" systems are mostly blade arts, sticks are seldom used,they have empty hands and disarms.

    3) Kalis Illustrissimo empty hands are very different from traditional silat... no jurus, no seni, different ways of moving, different positions, no illmu pratcices; there aren't infinite numbers of ways to hit an opponent but to my and their eyes it isn't silat....

    Fmas empty hands are often called combat judo.... karate means any striking art in the Philippines, it can mean sikaran, kung fu, ,silat ,kuntao...

    This is unlikely, if there is silat influence in some arnis styles it is probably indonesian silat...... filipino muslim guros are very secretive;) ....

    Not all, I also study Cinco Terros Arnis and there are no empty hands in this system.....
    Dumog until recently promoted by some modern systems had a quite bad reputation among filipinos and wasn't really associated to Arnis.


    With all respect.,

    Christian.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2003
  8. RubyMoon

    RubyMoon New Member

    Where does Serrada fall into the mix? I have studied some techniques from this style but otherwise know very little about it. I do know the techniques I learned were intended for a blade rather than a stick (but could work with either). I read somewhere that Serrada is a form of Escrima. Would I be way off track to guess that Serrada is simply a blade-oriented style of escrima?
     
  9. ICT

    ICT Shaolin Malay Silat

    krys,

    I respect your opinion on the subject and My knowledge of the Filipino arts come from Filipino Guro's here in the US who came over here in the 50's & 60's from many different regions of the Filipines as well as I read many books written on the subject.

    Viewing these different Guro's perform their art and talking with them and reading books is how I have come to the conclusions that I have. So, here are some more of my thoughts.


    The American government brought the muslim territories into what is now the Philippines...... They were independant areas before..... Actually there were already some muslim settlers in Luzon and the Visayas (ex. Rajah Sulaiman camp in what is now called Intramuros). Different waves of immigration came to the Philippines some from Borneo other from Indonesia.....

    Depends on how far back in time you go whether it was immigration or migration and how related the peoples were? The two are so near each other that they have common ancestry. Also don't forget about the Majapahit empire that covered most of SEA; Southern Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore & Southern Filipines which would of influenced their fighting arts as well.


    Nearly nobody in the Philippines uses the word Kalis..

    Only the Southern Filipines because it's an Indonesian word and would make sense since they are so close to Indonesia. The Island of Borneo's native name is Kalimantan (Kali).

    If muslim filipinos practiced an art called Kali christian filipinos could hardly have learned it from them given the bad relations between both groups....

    This line of thinking is always used all over the world as a safeguard but it's just not historically accurate. Love defies all! American President Thomas Jefferson had an African/American girlfriend during slavery when it was against the law to consort with them in such a manner! He tried to keep it low profile but many, many people new what was going on.


    There are lots of stories about this..... and most of them are doubtfull....

    Not when they themselves say it's true and give an account of the event. I would have to believe it.


    2) Kalis Illustrissimo is a blade art.... it has also empty hands and disarms.....

    All the Kali arts I've seen are blade arts. They may practice with sticks but the whole time they're telling you knife/sword and then you progress to practicing with the blade.


    Kalis Illustrissimo empty hands are very different from traditional silat... no jurus, no seni, different ways of moving, different positions, no illmu pratcices;

    Well that is just one Kali style and who said it had to be traditional Silat, I don't teach traditional Silat.


    there aren't infinite numbers of ways to hit an opponent but to my and their eyes it isn't silat

    That's one groups opinion and you already stated how secretive Filipino Guro's can be.


    Fmas empty hands are often called combat judo.... karate means any striking art in the Philippines, it can mean sikaran, kung fu, ,silat ,kuntao...

    Yes but not when the call it by name like: Shotokan, Aikido, Hapkido and etc..


    This is unlikely, if there is silat influence in some arnis styles it is probably indonesian silat...... filipino muslim guros are very secretive

    How ever it got there or who it came from doesn't matter and again with the "They would never teach it" stuff just doesn't make it fact.


    It's just my opinion based on evidence that I have gathered.


    Sincerely,
    Teacher: Eddie Ivester
     
  10. krys

    krys Valued Member

    Interesting post ICT, yes love defies all but I would like to give a last thought on the secrecy of mulim guros.


    This is an from an interview with my Grandmaster Hadji Y. Tanandjalan taken from the Rapid Journal.
    H. Yasser is an authority on filipino silat, the sultan of Sulu ask him to perform from time to time and he was choosen by him to organize sport silat in the Philippines....

    Interview with the master: The Passion from the Crescent Moon.


    During my trips to Mindanao I never heard of Kali but peoples usually understood Arnis.....Many of the muslims I met there told me they heard of silat (but of course didn't practice it;) )....When I asked what they practiced they were evasive and usually said nothing or a little Karate or Tae Kwon Do in their youth....
    I posted another article by Mark Wiley on arts practiced by the Matigsalogs (a pagan tribe of Mindanao) in the fma forum, they also don't teach their arts to outsiders:



    With all respect.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2003
  11. stump

    stump Supersub

    Tough it may not be factually accurate it's probably best to think of Arnis, Escrima and Kali as practically different words for the same thing.

    The arts can differ more depending on the school than on the name per se.

    The similarities far outweigh the differences
     
  12. sercuerdasfight

    sercuerdasfight Valued Member

    serrada escrima is a blade art. those who know the system know how the stick used to practice is the blade. angel cabales learned his skill from dizon who would only fight in bladed challenge matches. serrada is trained and practiced with a stick at the early stages, but it is a blade art and cabales was a blade man. angel also hand increditabe empty hand skills which are noted by those who knew him.
     
  13. butterfly_knf

    butterfly_knf New Member

    This is just an addition, based on my thought.

    I would hate to say this, but it's true...

    If I, was born in the same time where Asian Martial Arts were practiced in my warring country, I'd think more than 100 times to teach it to outsider or not.

    This is the truth our Asian's personality.
    We do not trust others than our clan.

    Why?
    We were hardly trying to survive. There's no one to trust besides our own inside community, and that's the very truth.
    Besides, the progression of the Art will demand stages of irrationality- you can ask every MA-st that truly came from Asia... "Is there a Martial Art (in/from Asia)- that had nothing to do with 'secrecy'?"

    Hardly, the answer is no.
    You may hate our ancestors for keeping such secret in providing their own advantages. But for a society living in tribes and cultures- the best way to life your life is to tie yourself to your family traditions.

    It is no more of a history. It is a fact.
    Europeans are a winner for their diligent thought in creating ideas and innovations.
    The modern world, their rational mind, their logical aspects.

    While in Asia, every daily activities (in some place still, until now) made-to-no transgression to our old habit. And the 'speak of nature', the philosophy, is our winning prize.

    Of course, this is nor good or bad (the reason for valuing such is too complicated).
    There are men who made a huge progress in teaching the Art. As of, Bruce lee who neglect the differentiation of races.

    Called it primitive, yes, it is ancient.
    But we could not afford it to cease to exist.
    As long as the mankind living on the other side is (and will) greatly profound to this logical reality. So do we need to maintain our solitary days. Because a world without these 'two pole'- is a world without a manners of appropriateness and concerns.

    -------------------

    Ok. That's at least what I can tell you of the 'Asian bad habit' - or whatever you named it.
    Are we such arrogant? Well, perhaps... (to be honest- this 'introverted mores of secrecy' is slowly being reduced by the young generations, and so do I)

    Anyhow, I can't argue with it- cos' it already happened. And I can't say whether it's fully right or wrong... It is probably something that is outside our reach, it happens by nature...

    I live by that, so I don't think I have any right to really-- prejudice-- this is something that came from my own mind, since I live in that culture, and with high regards- I choose not to live my whole life full of it.


    ...of course, the more we life, human thoughts are changing, they are not so skeptic as before, but these changes do needed time. And sadly, there are many things, events in the human life that is not recordable in our main history.

    Those, remain secrets.

    And one thing, these traditions remain so strong that even until now--

    "You may need more than a thousand men to move the mind of one person" and so the reverse...
     
  14. krys

    krys Valued Member

    Things are not linear in Asia and it is not easy for westerners to understand asian mentallity....
    Actually it took me many years to find a real guro.... and I really had to change...

    My english isn't that good but the following resumes the situation:
    When you have a guest in your house, you give him the white rice that's on the top of the pot.... you don't give him the brown rice from the bottom. The brown rice you can't give and keep for yourself...
     
  15. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member

    This discussion is rockin'. I think all of you are sharing excellent points of view, with a total lack of agressive ego. Really makes me glad I joined. Pesilat, thank you for your kind words! As another follower of the DeThouars Bros, as well as GM Cacoy, maybe we'll meet someday!

    My personal opinion is identical to ICT's. I heard the same story out of Pak Victor's mouth last month in his house, and have devoted much research to the subject long before that. However, the other theories hold as much water as any one else's, seeing as how we really have no concrete evidence about ANYTHING from the times before P.I. & Indonesia were occupied (Spanish & Dutch).

    Having said that, I just want to point out that it is damn near impossible for most asians to give exact timeline & occurances in thier histories without inconsistancies, due to so many violent regime changes. This is true in China, P.I., Laos, etc. So, for a westerner to give it a shot, although admirable, is realistically a futile persuit. At least, if your only intent is to give whatever art you are training in credibility. Kali & Silat are friggin' brutal, and you would be hard-pressed to find an art more flow-oriented. You really don't need to justify it with "...And to top it off, this art is 500 years old!" They really stand on thier own in the modern world.

    Lastly, KRYS: I actually LIKE the brown rice at the bottom of the pot!

    Just my Dos Centavos...

    Bobbe Edmonds
     
  16. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Good to see you here. I've seen you around on other discussion groups (primarily, Eskrima Digest, I think).

    I hope we do meet someday and, based on what I've read in your posts, I look forward to it.

    Mike
     
  17. moe389

    moe389 Valued Member

    Harimouw???

    Has anyone any info one this form of silat. Im almost positive my spelling is incorrect and it may not be a form of silat . Years ago I saw some stuff and heard some things that I would like to be educated on.


    thanx for any info
     
  18. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Harimau literally translates as "tiger." It's a Sumatran system of Silat that involves a lot of groundfighting. Not so much based on the movements of a tiger (though there is that aspect to it) but more on the attitude/mindset of a tiger.

    The ground is my weakest area but if I end up there, I'm probably going to be doing Harimau. There's a clip of me teaching a little of it on my website at http://impactacademy.com/videos

    Mike
     
  19. Crucible

    Crucible Valued Member

    They're often mentitioned together in the United States, but trust me they're not in the Philipines. Most escrimador maestros have never even seen silat, perhaps there were a few such as Jaunito Lacoste who traveled widely in the Philipines, were accepted by someone and allowed to learn silat. But most grandmasters when you talk to them actually developed thier escrima to protect themselves and fight against people from the southern philipines. Its not uncommon in conversation for them to talk about how many moros they've killed. When you ask them about empty hand depending on the generation they'll either say boxing, and maybe combat judo or karate. If they know silat, like GT Gaje, they may have learned in Indonesia. Regarding dumog, dumog is farmers sport often practiced at festivals and in most places looks like a game of seeing who can put who on thier back first. Usually they have no other combat skills then the ability to dislodge someone and put them on the floor. The dumog taught by GT Gaje is paticularly viscious and seems to be only in Negros. I have it on good authority the dumog he does can really be found in Negros. I've no idea where JKD got thier dumog.
    Regarding silat, its even difficult for a pesilat born in Mindanao to get other families to show them thier silat. Unlike in the rest of the Malay world its a very private affair usually reserved to your own family or specific castes. Hopefully in the future this will change, but I believe most of Mindanao doesn't realize what a deep and beautiful art it holds.
     
  20. Crucible

    Crucible Valued Member

    The best place to find documents regarding silat would guru O'ong Maryono's webpage, http://www.kpsnusantara.com/ .

    The Philipine arts, arnis/kali/escrima, would be more cousins to silat then children. The important thing to emphasize with Philipine arts is the focus on bladed and other weapon(impact/projectile/flexible) arts. 80% of police forces in the USA base some portition of thier defense skills on Philipine arts, as do the US marines and navy seals, and its due to the recognition of thier authority with weapons. Empty hand skills have grown out of the FMA's(Filipino martial arts) that are quite sophisticated, but I it would be inaccurate to refer it as silat.
     

Share This Page