difference among the xkans

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Love Budo, Jun 14, 2005.

  1. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Isnt it a shame that a soke is resorting to home study by DVD, we all go on about people like Hayes but IMO this is just as bad!!
  2. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    greg.. it isnt a home study course

    In fact, anything above 5 kyu techniques isnt available to the public... Its not like he has 20 or so DVD and tapes of Tai Kais, seminars, and others out portraying all of the techniques and information about ninjutsu or anything............................. :eek: :love:

    As for the training, i train with my seniors and they train with me. My class is too small to seperate us. What you saw on the website were just some of the techniques you learn in that kyu, here are the actually requirements:

  3. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    Martial training is a very personal, sacred practice that each student holds dear. The organization to which said student belongs is also sacred and personally important.

    My training in the Genbukan is extremely personal and sacred, and I commute an hour or so every week to train with a man who not only DOESN'T charge, but also provides every weapon and training material for us at no cost. As you can see, this makes my experience even more meaningful (to me), as I can't afford expensive classes nor personal training tools.

    However, knowing the quality of the MAP Ninjutsu posters, I decided I could share my training experiences here without receiving unnecessary negativity or prejudice.

    To be honest, I am thoroughly shocked to see the harmonious continuity of the thread interupted by a general, insulting, blatantly offensive blanket statement about my organization, no less posted by a Moderator.

    Thank you, and have a nice day.

    May you achieve
  4. Peaceful Tiger

    Peaceful Tiger Happy Member

    Just when we were getting on so well too. Spooky, give Greg a smack on the back of the hand :D
  5. Zamfoo

    Zamfoo Valued Member

    my training may be a bit different than the other genbukan people here, most nights my sensei will show us techniques and we do them with everyone. Mainly stuff that works on the basics but for the advanced class (5th kyu and up) we've done stuff i've never seen before and prolly work see again for a while.
  6. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Oh dear, i'm so sorry i offended you and your org, i promise not to do it again!!! :D


    If people sell techniques for grading then they are leaving themselves wide open, just like Van Donk, we all go on about him for home study and Hayes but this is just another aspect, Hatsumi flog DVD's of things like taikai etc just to show people whats going on at the moment, i dont think i have ever seen him doing a DVD of what needs to be done to get a 10th kyu. If you get that offended by comments then dont post things that will bring out those comments, its an open forum and its my right to have an opinion!!
  7. James L

    James L Valued Member

    I think you might have it wrong actually. I didn't see anywhere where it says that Tanemura grades people via video or mail or home study with these videos... only that they are supplements to a students training.

    If this is the case, Hatsumi Sensei does EXACTLY the same thing if you think about it. There are the DVD's covering Bo, Sword, Kihon (Sanshin and Kihon Happo), 6 of the Ryu Ha (with many of their kata), the stick fighting book (the best Hanbo jutsu resource I know of), the Tenchijin, etc.

    The only difference between the Genbukan videos in question, and the plethora of resources Hatsumi Sensei has been kind enough to share with us, is that the Genbukan has an organized syllabus structure, and Hatsumi does not.

    If Tanemura is indeed grading via home study with these tools, then I agree with you.

    If these tools are simply supplements available to his students, then you are wrong.... Tanemura has done NO different than Hatsumi sensei. He has provided audio video resources to further a students education. The fact that his are organized by grade, and Hatsumi Sensei's are organized by other means, is irrelevant.

    One might also note that before Tanemura is chastised for selling these videos, it is interesting to note that his tapes are $20 cheaper than the average one from the Bujinkan.

    I condemn home study courses a la Hayes and Von Donk. I do not condemn the head of a school providing resources for the betterment of its students. I have almost every Hatsumi Sensei tape, DVD, book, etc out there. If I trained in the Genbukan I would probably do the same.

    If it turns out I am correct in this, then I think you owe an honest apology..... but that's just me.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2005
  8. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    Greg Chapman,

    -Of course this is an open forum. I never requested that you with hold your opinion, and the open give/exchange of the "Public Discussion Forum" is what makes the boards interesting.


    The offense I received had nothing to do with your statement, but rather the thread, tone, and timing of your statement.

    The fact is that most of the posters here are of the Bujinkan. Many posters are were around when the "Split" happened, and still have biased feelings towards the Genbukan and Tanemura-Sensei in general.

    Yet, in spite of this, a few of us wanted to share our training and methodology with the rest of the posters here. We did so out of faith in the respectability of the posters here, trusting that we wouldn't be ridiculed in exchange for our willingness to have an "open, non-prejudice" discussion about our respective organizations.

    The fact remains that the original question asked in the thread had nothing to do with the Genbukan training videos. It had nothing to do with the morality or methodology behind selling training videos. Throwing out a general, insulting blanket statement that has little to do with the intent of the original post seems more like "Post Hijacking" than "Discussion Enhancement".

    If asked in another thread, I'm sure the few Genbukan practitioners would be happy to explain the reason behind the training videos (what we are aware of, anyway).

    However, that is not the original purpose of this thread, so I fail to see the point in addressing that question in the midst of a peaceful discussion on the difference in X-Kan methodology.

    Perhaps the reason for my dissatisfaction has been made a little more clear. I apologize for further derailing this thread.

    May you achieve
  9. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Like I said before, only the first few kyu levels are availabe to the public, only a Genbukan member at a recognized dojo can purchase anything else. There is no system of home study courses.
  10. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Actually i have never seen a DVD yet that can help me at home with my next grade that Hatsumi has produced, i have a few of his, i take a look every now and then to see how things should be done and thats all. I can honestly say that the only way i can further myself is with training with Norm, simple as that.

    The DVD's on that site for sale go indepth into each kyu grade and are designed as a tool to help you to the next level (according to one of your guys who PM'd me this morning!!) so in light of that i think this is an excellant part of this thread as it is showing another difference between the two systems.
  11. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Thanks for your comments Siphus, i think it was a lot more informative moaning about personal training and insulting comments, James L, there was never a comment in there about home grading, i was stating i think its bad that each kyu grade is simplified by a DVD, If you ask spooky, at our dojo they have a syllabus to work to then a whole load of work in between and IMO thats the way it should be, if your DVD's are an open product on the net then they are open for discussion on an open forum just like Hatsumi's are open for conversation, if someone has an opinion on Hatsumi making money from DVD's then thats up to them, i think Hatsumi has braod enough shoulders to cope with the small man commenting!!
  12. sshh

    sshh Not Talking Anymore

    Generally, according to my limited research, the differences between 'the kans' are mostly training methods, philosophies, and focus. Since they all stem from Takamatsu's tree (that's a free pun, enjoy).

    I appreciate all the Genbukan ninpoka who have shared. And I applaud the Bujinkan budoka (Greg, of course, excepted) who have responded just as politely.

    It seems to me that all the off-shoots of Bujinkan are similar in certain ways. They all seem to have a set, strict curriculum - whereas the BJK does not; they stress mechanical accuracy of foundational techniques - whereas the BJK typically stresses the holistic feeling of taijutsu and a conditioning to spontaneousness, creativity, and randomness. Few BJK dojo use sparring as part of training, the other organizations apparently use it more.

    Just a few aspects that make all except the Bujinkan very similar to eachother and all very different from their root source.

    Bujinkan training is often described as more playful, but still, even while "playing" it is understood that the subject matter being studied is deadly serious, even if it is practiced as an artform.

    Bujinkan training often lacks some of the added-on formalities of etiquette, and much of the structure is very loose and organic. Even the uncertainties surrounding practicioners' rank or instructors' teaching style are part of the challenges that make up training.

    To me, these things cause training and the whole art-study process to more closely resemble real life - which is what we are training for.

    Like Kurohana, I don't think I'd exactly fit in with a Genbukan class, but much about it appeals to me, or at least to certain parts of me. I also practiced aikido. And the dojo had many formalities of etiqutte, etc. and grading depended on memorization of accurate kata performance among other things, and resembled in many ways those core values of the Genbukan and many other traditional-styled / formalized martial arts schools.

    I enjoyed the contrast between that level of formality and predictability with the loose chaotic nature of Bujinkan training.

    Overall though, Bujinkan training has affected me most significantly in that I feel a real connection to life, whereas in other arts I have studied, it felt more like reading a book, or taking photographs.

    In techniques learned though, I'm not surprised to read that Genbukan students learn practically the same kinds of things. E.g. sword-evasion is a big part of Bujinkan training as well in my experience. It is included in the densho of core Takamatsuden ryuha: Togakure, Gyokko, TakagiYoshin - in some it is considered fundamental and a part of ukemi or taisabaki, in others it is the highest expression of technical skill.

    I would guess that since the Genbukan follows a more guided approach, they would cover the topic in more detail perhaps, as compared to the Bujinkan approach of being exposed to yet another feeling of combat and getting used to it. I recall reading somewhere that the higher level (yudansha, instructor-level) gradings in the Genbukan involve advanced sword-evasion patterns, so I guess it's a good idea to get used to those things early.

    In the Buj' we have the godan sakkijutsu test, but I don't think anyone trains specifically for that. I only know of one or two kata from Shindenfudo Ryu that deals with that particular scenario, but apparently the testing practice comes from Togakure Ryu.

    Satori: "However, on occasion one of the sempai will grab a shinai and begin "Freestyle Zan Totsu Sabaki", in which we are chased around by a sword wielding maniac and forced to use our "neenjootsoo skeelz" to escape."

    We (my close training partners and I) refer to that as "Shinai Therapy." A great cure for what ails your taijutsu.

    I have also experienced some bokken therapy courtesy of my shidoshi - a great cure for constipation! - great training for practicing transitions through soiru yo pantusu no kamae.

    See, we pressure test once in a while!
  13. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    So let me get this straight. The DVDs are not to sell to the general public and are just supposed to be a video means of refreshing students memory when they get home after class?

    Sounds cool! I think various instructors should make videos like that for their students.

    But, maybe not. I have seen arts where you have to learn a certain technique for a certain grade and I know that a lot of the students concentrate only on those techniques.

    Soke has said that he is teaching principles and not techniques. My teacher always tries to get me to develop certain habits rather than any kata. Maybe that is a difference between the Genbukan and the Bujinkan. In one dojo you would be given a rank if you threw your partner with omote gyaku, and in the other you would be given it if you got better at keeping in balance while doing varied techniques.

    Food for discussion at least.
  14. James L

    James L Valued Member

    Who are my guys?

    That is interesting that you have never seen a DVD in the Bujinkan that would help you train for the next level. I have been in the Bujinkan for quite a while (the only xKan I have trained in), and many of Soke's resources have helped me train for kyu grade testing.

    As an example, a kyu grade testing I once did had a section on Bojutsu, and Soke's Bo DVD (one of my favourites I might add) had excellent examples, depictions, tutorials, whatever you want to call them, on it. It was, apart from my regular instructors of course, one of the best resources I had for reviewing the material, and is invaluable for review. As we work our way through the Gyokko Ryu Kata this year, it is nice to have Soke's Gyokko Ryu video (though it is now dated), the 2001 Tai Kai video (not put out by Soke, but an excellent resource none the less), etc for reviewing points I may have missed in class. Hell, I even picked up on a finer point of Hanbo placement on a technique from Hatsumi Sensei's stick fighting book on day on a flight.

    Books, videos, dvds, etc will NEVER replace an instructor, but I have learned a lot from the material Soke has published that helped me.

    Tanemura put out DVD's organized by grade level. Soke puts outs out DVD's organized by subject, by ryu, etc.

    I really don't see the difference, as long as both are just additional resources, and not home study courses. It sounds like the Genbukan lists out the techniques by grade. Soke's videos and dvds have the same information there... you just have to hunt and peck for it.

    You really think there is that much of a difference? I don't see it. The only difference is that Soke has decided to leave the syllabus development to the Shidoshi and Shihan, (though one could aregue that even then he published a guideline for it in the tenchijin), whereas Tanemura has a "global" approach to syllabus development.

    Whatever. I am a Bujinkan member, and have been since 1992 (with a lengthy lull in training in the late 90's unfortunately). I will always be a Bujinkan member, but I respect the other organizations also.

    Now, really... who are my guys?

  15. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    Thank you for your well-thought, non-biased, logical post, James L.

    Since we can't seem to get away from the idea of "Training Tapes", I'll share what I've been told about their use.

    Everyone agrees that the Genbukan tends to be more formal and strict. Everyone agrees that the training seems a tad more rigid and basic. So where in this equation does it mention that the Genbukan has a home study course that tests for rank by video?

    It doesn't add up, people. For an organization as formal and traditional as the Genbukan, the idea of using a modern, commercialized set of home grading video tapes does not make sense.

    In the standardized "Training Handbook" given to all members, it specifically states that the requirements for Shodan are NOT to be published, but handed down from teacher to student when the time is right. I must have missed the part where it said "BUT...if you buy all of our video tapes, we'll go ahead and mail you a black belt when you feel the time is ready."

    Lets not be silly, folks. There is no conceivable way that Tanemura sensei would even CONSIDER grading students by video. Have I heard this from Tanemura sensei personally? No, but my instructor has, and that is all I really have to go on.

    The training videos are simply an aid to help students study MORE. Person to person instruction is REQUIRED to advance in rank, but most people (myself included) aren't able to live full-time with our instructors. Most of us have jobs. Many of us have families. Some of us have to commute to train, and can only train once a week or so.

    Most of us have flawed, non-photographic memories. Many of us try to train on our own when not in class, and some of us like to see actual people perform the techniques we are learning. So what is wrong with watching a video to aid us in our personal, non-class training?

    To make the connection from "Training Videos" to "Home Study Black Belt" is like calling every male who can color coordinate a homosexual. It is offensive, illogical, and based off of superfluous, non-supported opinion espoused as fact.

    May you achieve
  16. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Hey don't bring me into it, I'm being good little Ninja and staying in the Shadows :D

    If anyone mentions my jacket....Greg...Norm :eek: :eek: :D :D

    Sorry folks just trying to lighten the mood :D :Angel:
  17. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Now that would be a genbukan guy as i never actually put your name in that sentance did I james!!!!

    But see, its brought out another good difference between schools so before we all moan, have a look where it has gone!!

    And Rich, we know you can colour co0ordinate!!! :D
  18. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    At what point in the conversation did we start talking about grading by home study course? i was talking about kyu grade material being spelt out for people in DVD form when the best source is just to train at the dojo, if you take a look at my original post it just says i think the DVD's for each grade are wrong, nothing there about grading by home study!! everyone studies at home but i feel that DVD's should only be used as a reflection not a basis.
  19. Bouk Teef

    Bouk Teef Valued Member

    To be fair to Greg (and I can't believe I'm about to say this but), he didn't pass comment on grading by home study dvd's so shouldn't get chastised (too much ;) ).

    Does it really matter how they are organised? Consider one hundred different "techniques" and have them put onto ten dvd's. Surely it doesn't matter if the dvd's are organised by grade or subject matter. What is getting shown doesn't change so what difference does it make? The best source of information each of us has is our instructor.

    I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned money. Does anyone really believe that the leaders of these organisations make the vidoes, whether they be Tai Kai dvd's, grade demonstration dvd's or heaven forbid - BB Home Study Courses, out the goodness of their hearts or having the best interest of the students in mind? If that were the case then why do they cost so much? After all the production costs are not very high (from some that I have seen) and the "actors" probably come free.

    The goal of these dvd's is to make money with the students being the source of the cash. I would be very interested to hear from people who felt differently.

    We live in a consumer society so maybe this is just a reflection on that. If people wish to part with their cash then thats up to them. But before people get too passionate about who has the moral high ground on the dvd production maybe it might be worth taking a step back and coming to terms with why they have been produced in the first case.
  20. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    I'm not trying to present a particular opinion but I thought that this may help the discussion.

    The above is from the official Genbukan site.



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