Describing a school as 'Shaolin'

EDIT:

Never mind, I was thinking of someone else

Would you happen to have the link to the thread handy?

 

Everyone has valid points/counterpoints. Much to ponder :thinking:

 

yep will post it here but i always liked this qoute from david as well

got to love it, any thread link
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?30796-A-Few-Good-Monks/page4

 

Thank you very much for that quite interesting insiders view, Icefield.

 

It seems Barry a true-believer and that he'd gone to the *******Shaolin Temple in China ****** with Liu and there are articles and even Youtube vids where Cung Le states that he trained Sanshou under Shi DeRu and there was something mentioned about a Sanshou Championship with 5 medals, 15 medals or whatever that Liu's group won but unfortunately I know nothing about Sanshou, how their comps work, the sanctioning bodies roles - I know even in Western Boxing, there are a number of them and for some, it seems a fighter can plow through a handful and end up with a belt and world title - even if no one seems to have heard of them. With Sanshou, I'm utterly lost as to what is what.

Thing is, with my old boxing place, there warn't any autographed pictures of Ali, Joe Fraizer never trained with the owner's da, Floyd or Broner never once drove by in their Lamborghinis and I don't think they've fielded a recognisable champion in some years but they were always training guys for local smokers, Golden Gloves ammy's, small local shows and occassional large regional cards. The gym door was always open and always had young guys coming in at all hours to work.

It was small time - but busy - active. Our head trainer was always cornering someone.

I suppose that's what I look for in an MA school - a busy place where the head trainer is always having to be away cornering someone.

I don't know if that is the way things work in TCMA schools. I can see reasons why it would not be.

I see quite a bit about winning competitions and the like in print but when I try to find something - the equivalent to the local/regional ammy/semi-pro whatever matches and tourneys - I can't find anything. There's one or two names - big names, albeit - then there's ... nothing. No up and coming young 'un being mentored and having a few wins, a few losses on the circuit - is there even a Sanshou circuit?

Maybe I just havent looked in the right places?

When I stayed with my in-laws in Guangzhou, I used to go for walks in the morning and there was this park nearby my in-laws flat and it would always be filled with people doing what I thought at the time was Kung Fu ( of course it was Tai Chi ) but that's about the extent of my up-close and personal TCMA experience, lol.


Seriously, If the place runs like InkyTommy's Kung Fu school does, I'll be in the right place

I'd spoken with my wife and her stateside auntie and uncle (Cantonese) regarding Shaolin - or the Buddhist order - rather in some of the temples my wife and I had visited when we were there and they'd said - her uncle, in particular very bitter, that if there were any left by the time Chairman Mao caught up to it, the entire culture was most certainly wiped out.

In a place where ordinary peoples familiys were literally split apart - forced to work on farms in different locations, children taken, other horrors, anything that stood out as symbols of old culture China as much as the Buddhists and temple cultures did were in for special treatment.

Yeah, the "Shaolin Temple" isn't. Very sad. Very sad.

That's my issue with the school. I doubt if Barry knows anything about any of the real history, who really runs the "temples", where the money that tourists and MA practitioners who pay to go and train or whatever goes, but it is not what people think by any means.

...

 

Sounds like you have an exceptional sifu, aaradia. I didnt know till just recently about Wu-shu's (modern proponents, rather) role in the demise of authentic CMA.

I do remember seeing adverts for Wu-shu/Chinese Acrobatic teams coming to venues near where we lived a few times over the years. I was always puzzled that my wife would dismiss the idea of going to see the performances - not in the usual indifference one would decline but with a dark scowl on her face.

As she doesn't know anything herself pertaining to the history of Martial Arts, I can only surmise that the 'Shaolin' Shysters must have an exceedingly bad reputation that stretches beyond the world of martial arts.

would be the very least of it.

 

The thought of taking a tour of the place had been based at least partly on this^, after all its obtaining the training that is the matter of practical import, or so it seems - its just kicks and backfists and so forth, its neutral, amoral...

No. Its not, actually. Once some of the layers begin peeling of the onion... a few of my in-laws peeled the layers back even more after we spoke

I think you were being kind. This other ... EDIT EDIT ... frightening.

Anyroad, I appreciate you ( and that goes to all on the threads here ) venturing your thoughts on the matter. Turned out to be the case ... and maybe then some.

 

My kung fu is described as Shaolin, because every past master in our lineage for the last two centuries has called it "Shaolin Kung fu" "Shaolinquan" or "Siu Lam Kuen" our Sijo is the Venerable Jiang Nan from the Siu Lam Monastery on Nine Lotus Mountain in Fujian.

I trust our oral histories and tradition, if there are any inaccuracies, I don't really care to be honest. The arts themselves are genuine because I have succeeded in obtaining genuine, undeniable benefits to my health, life, and combat efficiency.

 

Because it differentiates it from systems that don't identify as Shaolin.
The over-whelming majority of "Shaolin schools don't involve monks or orange robes. Those that do typically have a direct link to the current temple set up.

 

This is one of the big misunderstandings with the Shaolin Temple lot, the performance teams are essentially professional tumblers. What's taught at Dengfeng Shaolin Kung Fu schools should be this stuff.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KevHM5oJ2k"]Shaolin small flood kung fu (xiao hong quan) A - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlzwrayNwwo"]Shaolin 7-stars kung fu (qi xing quan) - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUOUgjFmWfs"]Shaolin small explosive kung fu (pao quan) - YouTube[/ame]

 

Shaolin as a place is not viable as it was "intended". That many Chinese regard it as a Chinese Disneyland constantly being exploited. There is something about this that many Chinese do not like their culture exploited this way. Even it is by their own countrymen

Thanks David Langford and Sifu Ben
Allow me to reiterate a part of my post #25;

However, that said, if a school has a slight reference to Shaolin per not showing or having a "live monk", wearing monk-like clothing, and have some information as to not commercialize-intrigue to entice, I do not take such a harsh position. I have frequented some Chinese Martial Art schools and websites which merely reference Shaolin by using words/phrases like; "Shaolin, per legend" or "Legendary", "Per Myth", "Unproven", "Supposedly", etc. What this means they (like myself) have accepted Shaolin as part of Martial Art History and Reference, but not as a "ultimate"-proven lineage or propaganda

 

I must warn you never to "trust" oral histories and tradition any more than you trust the Internet. First and foremost you should accept that there are indeed many inaccuracies, there is no school out there that is factually correct on every point (or even a majority) simply because martial arts schools teach martial arts, not history. These "errors" will be found in nearly every single "Shaolin" school you attend, whether it's a legitimate lineage or a fake one. I know this to be true without ever attending them, because this is not a "Shaolin" or even martial arts problem at all, it's common wherever laypeople discuss history (indeed why history itself is a scientific discipline requiring careful, methodological study). The short version of how that works is you look for independent corroborating evidence to increase the confidence level that something or someone actually existed in the form claimed.

One great example is how much of the ancient world's cultural history is known not only because they recorded it themselves, but so did their trade partners and conquerors. Rome documented much of the ancient world which allows a great deal of comparison between histories. There is material in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament that can be verified through Roman historical records. On the other hand, there are some things in the Bible that can't be rectified very well with archaeology (e.g. the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt has practically no physical evidence to support the biblical account).

Another way to illustrate this is you start discussing US Constitutional history with general people (whether they're educated or not) and boy, what you'll find is a lot of people claiming crazy stuff about the Constitution that they can't support with facts, largely tied to their own personal agendas (perhaps one good example are the tax evaders who use their own personal interpretations to avoid taxation, often ending up in incidents with law enforcement).

You may find that many people in the legitimate lineages with Shaolin association (i.e. the non-fraudulent type) have done a lot of homework on their own either amateur or academically, and "fact checked" certain things. Still amongst those you'll find people that will have correctly validated a fact (e.g. Bodhidharma did not author the Yi Jin Jing), but will go right on to claim something else is a fact that is certainly not (e.g. the Five Elders were all real people, not composites or alter-egos).

 

:hail::happy:

Hey "Iron", do you have any other links or references?

I am always looking to "read-up"

 

Sure thing it depends would you like to "read up" on. Shahar's bibliography is my favorite treasure trove of extant, verifiable sources (with lots of really old pictures! ) of the old Shaolin arts relatively untainted by 20th century propaganda and historical mangling.

Here is a G-R-E-A-T link, it's part 3 of 3 in a set but this one has gorgeous 19th century colored murals: http://chinesemartialstudies.com/20...-martial-arts-in-the-ming-and-qing-dynasties/

http://chinesemartialstudies.com is a great, reliable source in general, but this 3 parter was, as they say around my neck of the woods, "money". Also a picture as they say is worth a thousand words (and I think there is a common Shaolin Chan theme there



I tend to avoid Internet resources as much as possible if they come from this-or-that "Shaolin school". You are spot on that much online is marketing hype, and isn't it funny how so much of it seems copied and pasted from one site with the same themes of Da mo creating kung fu, fixing monk's health. When you begin peeling back the timeline (as a real historian like Shahar does) what you find there are solutions to certain mysteries, such as the Da Mo-Kung Fu link (post-humous honors were very common in the Shaolin tradition, as was re-writing certain records to reflect new thought/changes).

One of my favorite threads of exploration, as boring as it might seem to martial artist, is the subject of meat versus vegetarianism. The Buddhist doctrines as written are fairly clear on the subject, and according to Shaolin record it was the standard thing there, but immediately you find 3rd party accounts of monks eating meat and doing many other "non-monk" things.

I don't think anything brings the Shaolin "down to earth" or down to our own level, the modern reader/scholar, than this: that they were often caught not practicing what was preached, and that their clerical leadership was very "hush" about it even back then. It's a very common theme in ecclesiastic circles across the globe, going back thousands of years: to sweep all the "sinning" done by the clergy "under the rug", so to speak Or, to set aside clear Buddhist moral doctrine (killing and so forth) when the Emperor or local countryside was in need of additional troops. The Shaolin were without a doubt an intelligent bunch, and they probably were well aware they were always merely one insulted Emperor away from being murdered en mass and having the land bequeathed to them taken away (which happened over a thousand years later).

 

Yeah, Stanley Henning is also "one of" my favorites as well as Meir Shahar

This is what I call regurgitated stuff also known as "The Bandwagon"

With the interviews and communications I had with Buddhist Monks (even a few Ch'an), is that meat, sex, violence, is not supposed to be part of their life as it goes against their dharma or rta. But as for eating meat this would depend on Pali or Mahayana scriptures. Monks and Buddhists seem to have logical views of eating meat (or not)

As the case of other religious clergy (other faiths-practices)

 

Which is what I wish to avoid.

There was something said by my Cantonese in-laws that puzzles me and I'm not certain if this applys only to the "shaolin" or to kung fu in general: "most are fakes, but there are some real ones and you don't want to mess up with them."

They went on to describe the ... underground business climate that permeates Chinatowns from NY to SF to London... organised...ahem...nefarious business activity...if you follow.

At least it was strongly implied and they don't care to elaborate on the subject - which is usual for them when it comes to discussing similar topics.

Anyone care to venture forth ( with discretion, please ) on this?

 

Certainly in the past amongst practitioners out of Hong Kong there were quite heavy links between organised crime and martial arts schools. Certainly 3 of my Sifu's teachers were involved in illegal activities to a greater or lesser extent (in one case certainly greater). However I think that it's something that's dying out with that generation of teachers.

 

Wasn't there a Master Pan (not doing illegal but some type of involvement)

 

You simply have to ask yourself why would someone in hong kong or china get into learning how to fight in the first place, what would they need it for?
Secondly you have to ask yourself why would certain business associations bring certain teachers to the states or Europe and put them up in accommodation and supply them with training halls etc
Finally you have to ask why would certain tough athletic guys in their 20s and early 30s suddenly feel a need to up route and move thousands of miles from their home and loved ones…..

The above also helps point out why kung fuy is in the shape it is, the really good fighters and teachers had jobs teaching associations and using their skills so probably didn’t bother teachers westerners or non-association guys

The ones who did start teaching were probably the ones in the 20s and 30s suddenly asked to leave home lol such people by and large weren’t of a hi moral standing should we say, and more interested in making money than teaching, and in allot of cases probably didn’t know the whole art just enough to fight with

Just generalising of course but I have known and heard directly of guys like the above