Dennis Jones

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by puma, Aug 2, 2009.

  1. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I've got to agree that gloves don't totally protect you from injury, but its still IME significantly easier to get away with alignment mistakes. I understand that boxers don't close the fist completely, but hey they're playing a particular game and so understandably gear the way they punch for the format of that game. I think you may have a point re: damage happening anyway - if the object you're unhitting is too inflexible or immovable. There's got to be some give or its just a mugs game.

    I'll vary impact exercises myself. For some, focussing on recovery I think is counter-productive for the actual exercise. But if you do exercises like that then I'd say you also need to do plenty in which you do focus on recovery. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by positioning in this context.

    I'm not going to argue about telegraphing, Dennis' way certainly isn't my way (although I did like quite a lot of what he did on the vids I posted). But I do think he's connecting the punch to his centre. His shoulder is braced appropriately, but most important is the the direction of force through his fist at impact. Its not a completely round swing of the arm (trying to project force at 90 degrees to his own centreline) but rather a more acute angle that's allowing him to partly put his centre behind it. As for the pull back the way I'm reading it - and I could be wrong - is that its not about power generating. I think he's turning away to mentally disarm his opponent (who thinks he's turning to walk off). Only Dennis could answer that question really. That's a tactic that people have tried on me (it worked once when I was 11 years old). Although its a common and therefore easy to predict tactic I could see it working if used at just the right moment in a verbal confrontation.

    I think you're probably right that such techniques wouldn't work so well in a one-on-one with a trained martial artist with an agreed start and finish time. But that's not the game Dennis is playing, like the boxer he's gearing his technique for the particular game he's involved in. If I understand correctly, he's knocked lots of people out so he must be doing something right.


    P.S. if he was a GKR student I'd just be impressed that he was hitting the bag at all:eek:
  2. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Ive used one bro,actually I didnt like the feel of it(and it sprung a leak!) however it must be better for your hands long term than a heavy/hard bag.:)
  3. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    On the subject of hitting a bag bare knuckle I was messing around inbetween weight sets with a friend/student of mine and he put his phone video on and caught me hitting the bag here it is below..any one like it or dislike it?:)

    [ame=""]YouTube - My Instructor Messing Around[/ame]
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I like. Especially the quick double cross. Tricky to get power in that second cross.
  5. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    I had not heard of Dennis James before reading this thread and all my knowledge of him comes from this thread and the youtube vids on it. After seeing the first vid of him doing bagwork, I was not impressed. As Puma mentioned, he telegraphs quite a bit and he holds his hands far too low. Though he does at least tuck his chin a bit, his jaw and T-tone are far too exposed. Also, I worked the doors at clubs for three years during college and I can tell you from experience thst while you can gain some valuable experience from that line of work, the majority of the bouncers that I worked with were far from being qualified experts on combat.

    Having said that, once I saw the second and third videos, I came to understand more of his approach and the reasoning behind it. Mr. James does focus on superior positioning, he uses his own version of probing that adapts for his enviroment, and even works in the rule of three for combos. We have a lot more in common than I would have guessed by just the first glimpse of him through the "snapshot" of his training through the lens on youtube. It also should be remembered that who a teacher is working with and how much time they have to work with those people makes a huge difference in what and how you are going to teach.

    As a similar example, when I first saw Krav Maga's approach to knife disarms and defense, I was utterly unimpressed initially. By that time, I had well over 20 years of training in the FMA's and had worked with several of the best in the business. The things being taught in KM would leave you woefully vulnerable against a skilled knife fighter/Escrimador. However, I was reminded that the purpose of their general training was NOT against a skilled or experienced knife fighter and that the vast majority of the students of KM were not going to have or put the time into developing the skill set necceasry to match my expectations as a guro. They did however do a decent job of accomplishing their goal of gaining a workable training method for people who wanted to be able to apply a usable defense in a short amount of time against more common knife attacks.

    Along the same lines, in his seminars, I am certain that Mr. James is giving the people who come in the best he can with the time he has with them and the amount of effort he expects them to take home and work with the material he gives them. There are a few areas that he and I differ from what I saw at this very brief glimpse at his training. I would still try to get students to stay protected during my attacks (chin down, hands up) and I would have them pivot the back foot on their punches.

    However, if someone were to judge me and my school from what my students have put on youtube, then most would think that we are all about flash and no substance. We train and teach MMA, but with a strong traditional base. If you look the videos that our teens have posted on youtube, you would see a bunch of martial arts "tricking" even though we have none of it in our curriculum. It's something that some of the teens and young adults will hang out and do after classes or after demo team practice. I don't mind them doing this, but it is not a reflection of what our school is about. Though if you were just peering in through youtube, that would be many people's impression. I am assuming it is much the same for Mr. James' teaching.

    One final note regarding the heavy bag. I grew up working the bag with no protective gear and I found it did wonders for keeping good habits in striking. My joke was that during High School, my "girlfriend" was the heavybag since I spent so much time with it (My actual girlfriend during high school was not so amused by this BTW. She was a wonderful and lovely lady that should really not be compared to a bag). As I physically matured and gained an obsene amount of physical strength and striking power, my hands became aware of the advantage of gloves and raps for doing my bagwork. I still work barehanded on the bag roughly 20-30 % of the time though.
  6. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Thank you for your feedback bro.:)
  7. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Hi fire cobra

    Nice solid straight right. Wouldn't want to be hit by it. If I have one criticism its that there's a slight telegraph on the first few punches. On a couple of them you hold the shoulder and arm back just for a moment before firing it.

    That may sound odd criticism coming from someone who's not criticising Dennis Jones for the same thing. But I think the difference is that you're starting from a more conventional face on (sparring?) position, ie. with your hands in a guard, and throwing quite a straight punch. For my money, from there should only be one direction to go in - forwards (of course, its one thing me saying that but its another thing achieving that in all my techniques myself). The way Dennis is walking around the bag I think is meant to be achieving the element of surprise and confusing the opponent about what's coming. Combined with the round punches its quite a different beast.

    Thanks for posting. Like I said, I wouldn't want to be hit by you:)
  8. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    Nice punches Fire cobra, quick hands :)

    Dennis Jones is working on a one punch KO on the street. What would be hopeless telegraphing in a ring needn't be on the street with the right set up.

    As to the amount of power he's generating, its a huge amount. Anyone who can't see that has no idea what they're looking at. He hits with incredable force..
  9. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Oh well, I must have no clue. I spend a lot of time with quite a few people in varied places on bag work and such, and what he generates certainly isn't a hugh amount going by what I see week in, week out, unless of course every single person I work with is some kind of superman, which I doubt. I am guessing he gets away with it to a certain degree because of his reputation. I am fairly sure if it was me or someone you had never heard of doing what he is it would get pulled a part. I have never heard of him, but obviously others have. So I am judging just by what I see, not what I have heard. In any case, even if he is a doorman or whatever, it doesn't really make much difference. I know quite a few. I am good friends of one who has worked the door for 28 years. He says some of the people he works with have reputations which are very misleading. He said one is known as a proper hard-case, but he says nothing could be further from the truth. He said once, just as it was about to kick off, this bouncer decides to go and have a crap. He said the incident was fairly rough, and obviously people heard about it. This guy spent the whole time the trouble was going on in the shi****. So my mate said the next night he hears this other bouncer telling his mates he did this and that, and he said it was complete fantasy! He was in the bog! But obviously his mates were impressed, and he has a reputation for something he is not. My mate said he was a useless bouncer, but people think he is rock-hard.

    Not that this Dennis dude is like that. I wouldn't know. All I am saying is it is easy to exaggerate, and make stories a little more impressive than they actually were. I go by what I see.
  10. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    To be fair, I probably looked more closely, then went and searched for some other vids, based on the fact that I (vaguely) know he has a reputation for being effective in what he does.

    And yes, reputation in door-work does count for a lot. I had a colleague and good friend who prided himself on never having hit anyone. I had to keep saying "Fine, lovely even, just don't let the punters hear you say that!".

  11. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    I was proud of only having hit three people in 20 years door work, you and your mate have made me think I was only good not great now [​IMG]
  12. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    You're better than me, I hit about 5 people in 3 years if I remember rightly. There were one or two times when (IMO) my mate should have hit someone but didn't.:fight3:

  13. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Thanks bro I appreciate your comments,Ill pay some more attention to the start positions and telegraphing:)
  14. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Thanks Snoop:)
  15. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on


    Dennis Jones is a friend of mine and I have also trained with him.He asked me to post a few comments as he is too busy to go into a detailed discussion about some of the comments made on this thread but said he will write a reply within the next week and email it to me so I can post it here.

    Just a bit on his background.Dennis started in Kyokushinkai karate in 1973 and passed his shodan grading in 1980.I believe he finished in third place in the European championships when he was a brown belt. These days he is ranked at 5th dan in Shikon karate and is also a qualified Wu style Tai Chi teacher.He dosen't do many seminars,around five since 2005,including one with Gavin Mulholland at SENI.He used to have a colum in Martial Arts Illustrated magazine called "Samurai on the Door" that ran for a few years.He has extensive experience of working on the doors of the Medway,one of the roughest areas of the UK.Between 1980 and 2006 he was involved in around two thousand violent incidents.That works out at around two incidents per week when things turned physical and force had to be used.

    Its difficult to understand exactly what he does from watching a vdieo clip but this explanation on WOMA might help you understand the way he strikes.

    The bio-mechanics of his "wild swings" can be found in almost all tai chi forms and if you practice tai chi its quite easy to pick up the way he strikes.The bag in the first clip weighed around 100lb and was very dense,hence the reason it dosen't swing far when hit.The bag in the clip Mike posted from a recent seminar was lighter but filled with sand and lead shot.His striking evolved out of need and wasn't the result of studying kata and trying to fit it into the fight.There was only one way and that was the way that worked.He refers to his strikes as "cuts" that aim to pole-axe the opponent with one hit.If anyone hits harder I have yet to meet them and I have trained with some people who are regarded as being at the top of their game.Dennis's strongest point,and I have rarely seen it in other martial artists,is that he is a master of deception and positioning.The opponent falls into a trap and almost sets himself up,hence the hands being at the side and not having to worry about telegraphing.

    Dennis has said he is interested in meeting up with anyone who is interested in what he does for either a chat or some training.He's a nice guy,very down to earth without a big ego,and certainly not the sort to beat people up because they have "dissed his method".The fact that he posted the clip of himself falling over after knocking the bag off its mounting would indicate he is secure in what he does and dosen't mind others having a laugh at his expense.

  16. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Thanks for the excellent response Tony :cool:
  17. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Looked pretty good to me. As for telegraphing and then leaving the arm extended after the punch, it looked like a training exercise to me. I certainly emphasize certain components of a technique when I'm trying to teach a certain principle. So that an observer would see things that I wouldn't do if I were performing the technique at speed. Not really fair to judge based on that.

    As for keeping his hands low, perhaps he's practicing for that environment in particular. After all, you're not walking around the pub with your hands up in a boxing guard. Right? So learning to generate the same sort of power from a different starting point would be a valuable experience.

    Last point: Roy Jones, Jr. and Prince Naseem also don't punch the way I punch. And I think it'll be safe for me to go on record as saying they've knocked out a fair few more people than me. Just because a fighter's method doesn't look textbook, that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Seems like it ought to mean that. But it doesn't.


    p.s. Based on how that bag in the first clip absorbed the shots, it looks heavier than the norm. Denser. I was impressed.
  18. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Quote of the year.
  19. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Roy Jones and Hamed was quite an ironic choice, as both had their hands by their kness most of the time! Great fighters. They certainly didn't telegraph anything - except when showboating. They do however, following cetain methods of punching, and both are similar although one is southpaw. I certainly wish I was a fast as Roy Jones in his prime!

    I don't remember anyone mentioning his (Dennis Jones) hands being down. Maybe I missed that bit, but having the hands low I can understand. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you do it properly.
  20. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    It's actually not ironic. The point is that all the fighters mentioned do something outside of the constraints of textbook punching. And that all should be judged not on their failure to adhere to that aesthetic, but on the results they achieve in doing so. Hameed and Jones, Jr. have been. Their fight records speak for themselves. Real life is a little more complicated, as these things 1) don't often get committed to tape for review and 2) involve variables that are generally isolated out in a ring sport.

    That said, you're weighting one piece of evidence very heavily indeed, while dismissing others entirely. Now, you're free to do so, obviously. It's only an opinion, after all. On both our sides.

    I'm telling you that his technique looked fine, given what he's trying to achieve with it. His track record appears to be quite good. And, watching him perform movements from more traditional material, it's clear to me that he has a thorough grounding in those.

    Seems to me, though, that if it were a real priority to get a sense for what he can and cannot do, then taking him up on an invitation to train is the most logical course of action.


Share This Page