Defense against Muay Thai Grapple

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Steiner, Oct 28, 2005.

  1. Ad McG

    Ad McG Troll-killer Supporter

    In a way that is true. However, nervous control has a huge influence, that and the incredibly low bodyweight! Funnily enough, I also did a unit on further generation and control of movement that was almost completely on the nervous system! Cats are used a lot, mostly for gait actions recordings and are very well researched. The tendon length has an influence because it acts like a lever. However, you can't change the length of the lever yourself which means you can't train it. Achilles tendon length is actually the reason why many elite level sprinters are black - they are genetically determined to have longer achilles. The tendons transmit the force of muscle contraction to move the bones - that is all. Their strength is purely structural ie. maximal strength as they have no contractile components. Although their hysterisis will have an influence, it is negligible compared to other components of movement.

    No, the muscles do begin to fail but they continue to contract. If they failed, you would fall over. Simple.The large MMAist probably falls over first in standing practice because he has the lowest amount of local muscular endurance combined with higher bodyweight, which means it is a lot harder for him to hold positions for a long time. Muscle strength is a complex thing, but on very light effort like holding positions you are talking purely endurance rather than strength.

    Hysterisis is something that is generally trained as an aside in most sports training - to concentrate on it would be foolish unless you are an elite athlete. SSC efficiency is trained through repeated quick movements similar to what you are practicing, like a footballer working on change of direction. However, greater maximal strength, explosive strength etc. will give better results.

    If you have control of their body, they will find it difficult to strike your legs, especially without leaving themselves open to a sweep or giving up into an even worse position. It is very hard to catch a leg in the clinch that is trying to knee you because if you go for the knee, you are leaving yourself in a poor situation position wise and you are exposed to many other threats. I'm sure others like Ikken can expand on this.
    How can someone step into your centre out of knee range? Anyone in a clinch is in knee range - pulling away leaves you in the best position for a knee if the person has control of your head. The best way to counter knees in the clinch is to pull the opponents hips in. If you have a good clinch game, nobody is stable enough to not be moved - that is the idea! Also, if someone is stronger then you are at a disadvantage all-round anyway, so they can apply to all other situations. It is upto you what you do with someone stronger. There are a million "what-ifs" in this situation! :)

    Again, feel free to ask any more questions on the anatomy front.
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Adam McG,
    Gotta say that was a mighty interesting post. Jeez, next time I'll ask for good anatomy texts and reading material for insight in the H&F forum. :)

    A word of thanks to you as well. Without your responses some of this stuff wouldn't have come up and it would have been only half as interesting. :)
  3. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    Thanks guys.

    Really like learning about this stuff!! thanks.

    Not alot i can add really. But if either of you are in the Glos area of the UK i would happily meet up to go through some IMA ideas regarding this in a friendly way. Always fun to have a knock around! :D

    I will try to put a clip together also to demo what ideas from Xing Yi, Ba Gua and Tai Chi can be used.

  4. reikislapper

    reikislapper see you on the flypaper

    If you clinch someone and they strike your legs everytime you knee them (ever been given a dead leg), catch your leg and throw you on your head, wont stand still and constantley step into your centre out of you knee range, are unusually stable dispite your efforts. What do you do?

    also, what if the guy is alot stronger than you?? can you still throw them around like a rag doll?

    out of interest.

    thankyou for the insights into what modern medicine says.

    Hi, Middleway (Chris)

    Look I hope you don't mind me joining in with this question cos as you might know I used to train in Mauy thai before all the crap started with my health lol.

    Anyway to answer the question, remember it takes a while to condition your body to accept the kicks and punches from another fighter from the same style of fighting. The way I was taught was to go into the kick and absorb it as soon as it's been given, for starters the strength isn't there as much and you can't do much damage if you haven't got any power with a kick even if it's done in the right way.
    I'll try and explain better lol, right the boxer has you round the neck, he's using you like a rag doll swinging you all over the place but the problem is if you think of where his body is moving next you can move your body to where he's going to kick next ie the knee into the ribs. The boxer uses his right knee to go for the ribs, you then twist your hips to the left so he can't get your ribs he just gets a weak kick in the back and it doesn't hurt as you have moved into it and you can then attack the same way he's done but you can hurt him a lot more cos he's got to them move into position to be able to get his rythem back. It easy to do if you have been taught this way. It's just the same with legs and everything else, remember also you should have your arms around his neck as well.
    It's all about how you use your ribs to move out of a situation and speed, Mauy thai is a really hard sport and I loved it more than anything, I'd love to go back into training more than anything, it's worth everything I have and more besides. When I did internal stuff my heart was still into the external and I couldn't get away from it, it's the way I am. I come from a external art and a few people couldn't accept it. I don't think of the danger as I've already been through the worst thing what could happen and I don't fear it. This is why I take more chances than most as I know what's on the other side, remember I've been clinically dead already and they brought me back . It's a lot for people to understand but it's where they are at and it's not just friends it's also the doc's lol, I'd do anything to be back and if anyone knows of a club which would be willing to take me on within Mauy thai then I'd join it.
    lisa xx
  5. shinbushi

    shinbushi Reaver

    averan I have read Tim's stuff (Effortless Combat Throws. Bu as someone who does BJJ and Muay Thai, the Thai clinch is VERY different than a grappling clinch. Especially most BJJ guys (That don't cross train in judo) have a very slow moving clinch(like chess) until they explode with a throw. A Thai clinch is like bing in a car wreck tons of things going on and very chaotic.
  6. zac_duncan

    zac_duncan New Member

    Middleway and Ad McG, if you don't mind, I'm going to take a part of this conversation to my teacher and get his thoughts on it. He's currently working on his masters in Sports Physiology (or something of that sort), and has 30 years of IMA practice, so he might be able to address some of the gaps between what the two of you are saying.

    I'm not certain he'll have the time, but perhaps he can just give me some quick thoughts.
  7. averan

    averan New Member

    oh....thanks for the heads up.

    thank you for clarifying...and responding so intelligently to my posted assumption. torrance is quite close to garden grove, you might consider checking out his school sometime---what do you practice?

    in response to the "very chaotic" IMA fighter would respond immediately, almost pre-emptively to the clinch. using internal style sensitivity skills to detect the clinch coming and neutralize the attempt before it can be successfully applied.

    i've used the "chaotic" response myself in a bagua way, to get out of a clinch. the guy was bigger and stonger so i just went beserko inside his hold, using the bagua preference for constant change, but to the max, and while moving closer in toward his center. he didnt' like it one bit and rather than take a head to the chin, torqued shoulder or knee, or be thrown, he hesitated just enough for me to escape and pull him forward into a throw.

    ps: this thread is dead....or at least it has mutated into some crazy zombie experiment in human communication.

    pps: for all those wishing to research more about tendons and ligaments, apart from the straight western medical view, google "structural integration" and "rolfing". i feel these modern methods have hit upon the secret of IMA.

    i would like to point out, tendons and muscles are different. they are trained differently. and just because a million gnats fly into the bug-zapper doesn't mean that the light they saw was God, ie, it isn't sufficient proof that they know everything there is to know, just that they know enough to do their job well enough for them.

    tendons and ligaments respond to deep, slow, consistent pressure. any professional body worker will show you the difference. muscles can be stretched and massaged with quick shallow strokes....entirely ignoring the fascia.

    slow movements, or prolonged postures effect change in the fascia. quick movements effect change in the muscles. i'd dare say that most bodybuiilders do not stretch enough...and that their bulk is very much due to the consistent shortening of muscles and fascia.

    if you want to talk about leverage, then let's talk about it in an internal martial arts way.

    ......if you want to lift an object with your arm and you wanted to use the least amount of energy possible to do so, and you understood the principle of levers.....would you simply contract your bicep?

    nope. that would be using only 1 lever: across the elbow. instead, you would use as many levers as you could in a series. if each lever can reduce the amount of energy needed to lift the object by 1/2, then 2 levers would only need 1/4 the original amount of force to lift it. and 3 levers only 1/8.

    this is what internal arts is based on. don't just use the muscle/tendon lever at the elbow, but also at the shoulder, hip and knee---the whole body. it takes long slow practice to train the fascia to connect in this way....and to train the secondary muscles groups, those associated with holding position instead of the primary movers. muscular strength is gained relatively quickly. this is also why there is such a difference in the time it takes to master an EMA vs IMA to use effectively in combat.

    maybe someone could start a betting pool on how many pages this thread will grow to until it is frozen! :D
  8. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    I haven't read this entire thread but for a few early posts here and there... my only comment is regarding Taiji and dealing with other styles. Essentially the bottom line is that there are multiple techniques in the Taiji curriculum that deal with pretty much any type of attack no matter WHAT style your up against. If I was being approached by someone from another style going for the clinch I can't tell you what I would do until the situation was upon me ... I know what to do, but how I would execute my defense is dependant upon so many extenuating factors that it's absurd to speculate in a forum about it. The ultimate bottom line is that if you don't know how to deal with other styles of attack, Taiji is a close quarters - stand up grappling art - then you need to do more training because it's all there! :)

    *Hint* If your training your Taiji correctly then no-one ought to get you in a clinch.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2005
  9. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I'd be interested to hear what your teacher has to say bout this. I am curious what you think the gaps are between the middleways post and Adam's. :confused:
  10. zac_duncan

    zac_duncan New Member

    Actually, as I read back, I don't see a real gap other than a lack of good explanation for some IMA practices. Still, I'd like to get his opinion.
  11. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Yeah, no worries. By all means get his opinion. It'd be worth taking a listen to.
    I only phrased it the way I did because Adam had pretty solidly refuted what was being asserted in terms of anatomy and physiology from the IMA side of things.

    But as they say - the more the merrier.:D
  12. zac_duncan

    zac_duncan New Member

    Yeah, Adam did fairly solidly refute the ideas presented, but I'd like to know if my teacher agrees with him and what insight he can give into the phtsiological benefits of IMA training and where he feels physiologically the line between IMA and EMA exists.

    Not sure when he'll have time to go over it, but I am curious.
  13. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    Could duck-unders work against a MT clinch?
  14. Ad McG

    Ad McG Troll-killer Supporter

    Depends what a duck-under is :D
  15. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Wouldn't you just be shovin your own head into his knee? :D
  16. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    If you're thinkin' a 'duck-under' is the same thing I'm thinkin' then yes you will end up as one KTFO duck. Most Thai fighters love it when someone attempts to escape the clinch by 'ducking under'... it put there head right when they want it to be to plant their knee right dead center of you face. :D

    For Christ's sake people... learn how to Muay Thai clinch. It certainly will be less painful than all these silly ideas that keep popping up in this thread. :D
  17. zac_duncan

    zac_duncan New Member

    Nonsense. Most of the ideas here will never be put into practice, so no pain will result from them.

    FWIW over this last weekend while doing a little sparring, I wound up in a very simlar clinch and was able to sweep my partner before he completely tied me up. If he'd tied me up, I would've been screwed. Seems like the best defense against this technique is to not get in it.
  18. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Yeah given the some of the rubbish that has been posted... your exactly right.

    In theory... that idea works really well... however reality is slightly more demanding. :D
  19. zac_duncan

    zac_duncan New Member

    Of course. At the same time, I don't see myself ever having to fight an MT player "for real". That said, when I get an opportunity, I anticipate learning what I can at the hands of one.
  20. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    Not really an option for me right now. I'm just kind of trying to figure out in which ways it varies from the clinches I do know.

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