Defense against Muay Thai Grapple

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Steiner, Oct 28, 2005.

  1. zac_duncan

    zac_duncan New Member

    Oh, and I might as well add this one to the fray as well. Looks like she could use an art with a philosophical basis.

  2. pete_e

    pete_e New Member

    You beat me to that observation Zac. STJ's post does indeed suggest to me that there's plenty for a taiji or bagua player to use within the clinch (I don't know enough about xingyi to comment on it).

    Now I know that I'll get some stick for this next bit - but here goes anyway. I daresay that the better taiji players about could handle situations like this without training specifically for it. Taiji isn't about set techniques - its about learning a range of principles that can then be applied to a whole set of different techniques and scenarios.

    Unfortunately I myself can't claim to be at that sort of level - so for me practise is probably the only answer....
  3. zac_duncan

    zac_duncan New Member

    It works for xingyi too.

    The *best* players of any style can deal with this sort of scenario. They can deal with just about anything, that's what makes them the best.

    Now, admitably, your chance of encountering this kind of technique in a streetfight is very low, but if you want to know how to deal with it before you achieve the kind of skill we're talking about, you might just want to train against it.
  4. Sandus

    Sandus Moved Himself On

    This picture is stupid. Mickeys are actually women.
  5. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Irish women?

  6. zac_duncan

    zac_duncan New Member

    Oh sure, ruin my joy at that picture.
  7. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    another good one in the clinch for smaller guys is like a lumbar clinch except you jam your head underneath theirs and force their head back. this is quite painful and it either forces them to let go or gives them a hell of a sore neck, as well as breaking their balance while "grounding" yours.

    if they are so tall that you cant reach their chin with your head, its time to employ some devastating nike fu :D
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2005
  8. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    My experience in the clinch is the cl;oser I get my body to theres the less the knee's hurt and the more they elbow me in the face, someitmes foot to foot sweeps work ok against a knee though (i.e. you sweep the standing leg).
  9. Ad McG

    Ad McG Troll-killer Supporter

    Thanks again for a mature reply, there aren't exactly too many on this thread.

    One thing I have to question - "internal structure of the tendons". What do you mean by this? It sounds precarious to me. Tendons attach muscles to bone, nothing else. The maximal tensile strength of tendons is it's only real property that has any influence on movements, as once you pass this they will permanently stretch or snap. They serve no other purpose. Muscles pull on them and they transmit this force to the bones - that is all. I have seen many other people suggest that they have other functions previously, and it's pure pseudo-science.

    I wasn't saying that your entire method of fighting is impractical and that taiji principles do not work - I was however saying that it is naive to think that you can beat someone to the punch every single time and always be one step ahead. The idea that you can stop someone clinching and controlling you by moving before they can gain control will not always work IMO.
  10. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member


    You are right in that it won't always work..

    On the tendon thing, I am definately not the best person to give you the ins and out of it..

    I still can't quite get my head round how standing has the effects it has.
    I mean you're just standing there! .. go figure. I am still building up my knowledge slowly in IMA.. and am very much a humble lowly beginner.

    What I do know is that the instructors I train with have these qualities. I have also experienced a little of the effects of the training on myself.

    Chris (middleway), one of my instructors has taught me a little about li gong - which has to do with the strengthening of all the connective tissues, tendons etc..I hope he can step in here and explain a bit more how it all works as my knowledge of it is quite poor indeed...but I'm more than happy to train it because I have tasted first hand what it accomplishes.

    Thing is it is hard work and takes time. You need patience and perseverance.
    To get good at these arts takes time I have get real good takes a long time - bit of a cliche, but its true. Maybe 8-10 yrs to reach a reasonable level in IMA - but thats just speculation on my part - and it depends on the person too...and art maybe (xinyi may be more practical in quicker time)

    After 3 and a bit years of taijiquan, I feel like my work hasn't hardly even begun yet.
    I am only just starting to get my head round what's involved at the more internal levels.

    You may be right in that it sounds like psuedo science, but science relies on experiments and results. And I've tasted and been on the receiving end of the results!

    regards geo
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2005
  11. reikislapper

    reikislapper see you on the flypaper

    I hope no one minds me joining in this thread as I used to do mauy thai before I had heart surgery and I have a couple of things to say. Firstly I've really enjoyed reading all of it in a evil sort of way but not for the wrong reasons lol.

    Well the mauy thai used to be one of my fave area's of training and I know how some of the internal lot may find it really hard to beat a mauy thai boxer but there is a way round it if you know how lol.

    I will try and explain how I was taught by coach (my former teacher who's name is Mike), the way he used to train us was when you get your partner in the hold where your hands are around the neck, remembering that your wearing boxing gloves as well. You grip one hand over the other just in case you need to get out of it quick to fight back. You try and get the pressure points on the neck so they feel a bit more pressure and their mind is there in stead of getting out of the position they have found themselves in. You pull the partner towards you with as much force as possible so their body is loose and you can direct you kicks to anywhere you want. ie. knees to the ribs, solar plexus and the head if you can get it in the right place, If your lucky you can even floor them with a couple of easy moves.
    This is a problem area which some of the internal students as they seem to think that they need to go in soft but sometimes this can be a disadvantage for you all. I do have a good side for the internal ones on here though, you can get out of the position if you know how to do pushing hands as there are at least three moves I know of which could help you get out of the situation of getting stuck. I can't name them very well cos I only had a couple or so goes at it and I was very new to the area of tai chi. I do know you would be able to get out of the hold as I shown one of the moves to someone earlier this year with doing a bit of self defence training they had been doing. I know it works and I can say this because I used to do mauy thai under one of Master Toddy's gyms in derbyshire, I still see coach every so often and he doesn't train anymore as Master Toddy left the UK to work in America, which was ages ago and he's said that he's to old now lol.
    I'm not here to have a go at anyone in here and hope that I get a hearing too as I can speak from personal experience and not from reading a few books on the subject. There is good and bad points on either side and what we should be doing is sharing the information rather than bickering and making negative comments about who's better. I'm sorry if it rubs someone up the wrong way and I hope you forgive me (in the best possible taste)
    lisa xx
  12. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Thanks for those insights Lisa..

    I'd like to make a couple of comments though.

    the evasive, yielding/receptive area of taijiquan would and can be utilised to keep the clinch from happening - a 'yang' move could also be used at the halfway point of the clinch being put on.

    Once in that scenario though there is no point it seems to me to leave room for strikes to come in. I would be looking to get in toe to toe - skin to skin.
    And remeber the 'soft' as it has been come to be known is outside predominantly. Once here we can use the no resistance/no seperation principle to manipulate the others movement through yielding to their firmness.

    I've played thisway myself and its not so hard to get someone in a headlock or some such doing this. To say you go in soft is wrong imo. You go in 100% hard and 100% soft.

    Yeah I know it makes no sense at all :)

    clinch? pfft! :Angel: I love to dance cheek to cheek
    now a thai roundhouse kick, there a weapon to take seriously. I love using elbows myself. The knees are a problem going in, I don't use them as much as an MT guy, but I can use them. Brush knee twist step gives you an idea of how you can use your knees to counter a rndhouse. We use them in to out. It is hard to counter knees, most practical is just to use knees back to hit their knees or them..
    personally I'm a shortish/stocky type so if I hang around outside against a taller guy he'll have my number(if he knows what he's doing). That's why I like to get in quick...move..hit...move..hit.. do I get hit/unstuck? yeah sure I do.
    fools rush in :)

    Personally I prefer not to look at things as style v style. for me its everything & anything vs. everything and anything.

    well there my tuppence on another crazy MAP thread. A rather entertaining one I must say..rightly or wrongly. We even had some pictures thrown in for good measure :p
  13. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Despite whatever MT guys do and IMA guys do... here is one example of clinch we can all agree we'd rather not have to deal with! :D

    Attached Files:

  14. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    And yet another... not only would you NOT want to have to clinch with these guys... can you imagine you were innocently walking by or between the two when they decided to clinch!!!! :eek:

    Attached Files:

  15. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    and for laughs... a clinch with slight discrepancies.... :D

    Attached Files:

  16. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Hope you guys are working your ground game... because many clinches go directly there... :D

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  17. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Ah but...

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  18. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter


    This image will now be appropriated and posted infinitum here at MAP.
  19. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I wouldn't like to guess where his other hand is :eek:
  20. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Kind of like waking up with your hand between two pillows eh. :p
    Only if your pillows were made out of slabs of Japanese beef. :eek:

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