Defense against Muay Thai Grapple

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Steiner, Oct 28, 2005.

  1. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    TB - I've always thought you write some great posts, but I have to agree with these loopy kickboxing knuckleheads :)D) on this one.

    Yeah, yeah, we all know tai chi makes you a better person, we learn tai chi to learn not to fight, bla bla. But this particular thread is not the place for it. The title of the thread is "defence against muay thai grapple", talk about how IMA people are holier than thou really has no place in a thread which is about the technical aspect of a fighting situation.

    This is a MA forum, so the idea is people write about fighting. There's nothing wrong with book learning if you've got a positive contribution, but face it, you don't have as much experience as those who actually practice the clinch, and you shouldn't defend your pov by saying you're too good/peaceful/deadly to try what you've been saying.

    Suck it up, go to a MT class and try the IMA principles on someone who knows how to clinch. You won't kill someone just by using IMA grounding.

    Also, if only a lot more EMA people invaded the IMA forums. You're welcome anytime guys, just watch out for flying chi blasts and don't cause any trouble or I'll poke you in the eye.
  2. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    The Last Post (for now!)

    I'm confused. LOL :rolleyes: /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    You guys seem to have a problem understanding the difference between what I am actually saying and your opinion of it.
    You also seem to think I am having trouble dealing with the comebacks I am getting here LOL you are the ones in dreamland! :bang:
    None of you know me. You don't know my experience of real fighting or MA training. If you did... well you'd still dis me anyway I expect because your minds are so narrow it's no wonder there's a queue for intelligent ideas to pass through them! :D
    I'm not anti-MT as such, I just prefer not to train it because I don't want to end up with the kind of mentality I've seen displayed here.
    jeez this is such a waste of my time :rolleyes:
    I'm going to spend more time training and not hang out with you little boys til you grow up a bit - go watch cbeebies lol
  3. Ad McG

    Ad McG Troll-killer Supporter

    Thank you for responding and actually addressing the points I brought up, which isn't exactly the favourite hobby of another certain poster in this thread - see later.

    I'm sorry if I sound crass but I can't put it any other way - if you approach fighting in that way then you are living in a dream world. You are saying that you will always be first when this will not always be the case - to claim that you will always be there first because it is your intention to move your centre at your will, is ridiculous. It's like saying "I will always hit you first because I am faster". Surely if this principle was as efficient as you think it is, then it would be more popular in the world of MMA, kickboxing or boxing? These martial arts, especially boxing, are worth a heck of a lot of money and a lot of training and development time is constantly being put in as fighters and coaches worldwide evaluate, experiment, test and re-evaluate what they are doing. Their efficiency is undoubtable. Please by all means give it a try, but don't come crying! :)

    Taiji - You are basically as insulting as it gets without actually calling me an idiot. First of all, you are holding a grudge against me for a thread where I along with many others proved you to be incorrect - real mature for a 39 year old, as was the comment about "go back to your weights". Not at all ignorant or childish! That along with putting down the entire kickboxing community.

    Second of all, your obviously stubborn, narrow-minded nature shadows your views from real world evidence and arguments that actually carry weight hence why you don't actually reply properly just like in the H+F thread. If you can't post in a manner which addresses previous, backed-up arguments with REAL, PROVEN points and admit flaws in your own theory when pointed out, then don't bother because you are only flaunting your obvious arrogance and disregard for other opinions. The whole idea of a discussion forum is to LEARN things, not to argue sides and claim that you are always correct whether you have been proved wrong or not. If you gave me reason to doubt what I was saying, then I would look at it openly and consider it as valid until proven otherwise. Remember when people said the world was flat and somebody said it isn't - they got strung up despite having evidence ane eventually being proved correct. You are one of those people doing the stringing, because people like that are the ones that are more blind than anybody. Although nothing in the MA world is that cut and dry, you are blatantly ignoring the fact that your entire theory has been tried and tested by MANY people past and present and failed miserably. You don't know anything about what you're figthing against, and you haven't even tried your theory yourself so how can you even have the gall to claim that it will work when others have shown that it is heavily flawed?

    Please prove my point by posting another patronising smiley.
  4. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Great, I might drop in a little more often ... less sycophancy is always a +!

    ... I'll let Andy know too.
  5. Jesh

    Jesh Dutch Side Of The Force


    [ ] Clueless Newbie
    [ ] Loser
    [ ] Previously Banned Member
    [ ] Bruce Lee Wannabee
    [ ] Troll
    [ ] Spammer
    [ ] 13 year old l337 d00d
    [ ] Flamer
    [ ] Whiner
    [ ] Book Taught Loonie
    [X] Uber Expert

    You Are Being Flamed Because:

    [ ] You posted a Style Vs Style Thread
    [ ] You posted another pointless Bruce Lee thread
    [ ] You posted a personal attack against a mod
    [ ] You should have used the Search Feature
    [ ] You posted the Real Ultimate Power site again
    [ ] You posted a thread in Ninjitsu asking about smoke bombs/night training
    [ ] You posted a MMA Spoiler in Traditional Healing
    [ ] You posted a thread stating you can run up walls
    [ ] You posted a ( WarCraft 3 / WoW ) vs Diablo 2 thread
    [ ] You posted an OMG The Sky is Falling thread
    [ ] You ressurected a long dead, stupid thread
    [X] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message
    [X] You flamed someone and got burnt
    [ ] You posted a thread on Dux Ninjitsu
    [ ] You haven't read the stickies
    [ ] You asked why you can't get into the arcade on your first post
    [ ] You typed in text/leet speak
    [ ] You posted false information then refused to back it up.
    [ ] You posted a video/site we've all seen a thousand times before
    [ ] You believe that people from video games are great MA experts
    [ ] You posted a "secret techniques and I'm not sharing" thread

    In Punishment, You Must:

    [ ] Take down all your Bruce Lee posters
    [ ] Stop posting and go to class 3 times a week
    [ ] Actually post something relevant
    [ ] Read the Damn FAQ
    [X] Go to your room with no supper
    [ ] Apologize to everybody on this forum (execpt NaughtyKnight, who loves it!)
    [X] Stand in the corner and do kata till you die of boredom
    [ ] Ride over your collection of MA video-games on a bike
    [ ] All of the above

    In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

    [ ] Learn to type using ALL the correct letters
    [X] Welcome to last week
    [ ] Press Alt and F4
    [ ] Can I have your stuff?
    [ ] Don't let the door hit you in the ass.
    [X] All your base are belong to us. Go every Zig.
    [ ] Read the damn Stickies! They are there for a reason!
    [ ] All of the above
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2005
  6. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    I love reading TB's responses- it reminds me that even when I hit 39 years old there is hope I will still think like a child :D

    (unfortunately i think things like logic and educashun might put paid to that :()
  7. Sandus

    Sandus Moved Himself On

    Your spelling sucks. It's ejacayshin. Geez.
  8. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Slipthejab, your quote is officially in my signature now.

    Thank you for making this day SOOOOOOOO much fun everybody.

    Now all I need to do is bring back my aggression when sparring. . . . tonight didn't go so well as planned, mostly because I was very passive.
  9. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter


    What a bizarre signature.
    I like it!:D
  10. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Gentlemen, can we please return this thread to it's topic rather than all attempt to slag each other off.
  11. pete_e

    pete_e New Member

    I think this really sums up the preferred IMA approach to the clinch (at least in Taiji terms). I'm most of my teachers would welcome someone trying to get a clinch - at that point they'd be exactly where a good taiji player would want them to be - up close and in contact, trying to control them.

    That said, I'm not sure what they'd do when they were actually clinched (it's bound to happen sooner or later if both fighters are of similar levels), although I'm sure some of them would have some pretty effective ways of dealing with it ;)

    I'm curious, though, all these visiting Muay Thai guys and I've yet to see much advice on how to deal with the clinch other than - 'go to a MT gym and train with them'. So come on guys - spill the beans, when you clinch someone what's the response you least want to get?
  12. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    the thing is there are no "win techniques" in the clinch. it doesnt matter if I show someone what to do in a clinch because the majority of it is body positioning, balance, centering, and strategy. once you have these you can start using techniques but the only way to develop those skills is by doing it. knowing various moves in the clinch is useless without these skills. I can clinch with someone and give them tips while clinching or after, but it just isnt something you can explain without showing.

    Im not sure if you noticed, but this is also where muay thai fighters prefer to be. watch some fights from thailand- some fighters will simply walk in and clinch and wont get out of that range until the bell goes.
  13. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Shoulder stroke from taiji is a move that could be used here..
    you could of course lead in with the head if its not friendly.
    The shoulder bump/strike may disrupt the clinch and buy you some room to counter/follow up.

    @ adMcG

    Well that is one principle/ I said not the only one. Having an intention and pulling it off all the time is not the same thing. I use the strategy/principle/technique at the time I instinctively feel is the best in any given moment in a spar/fight..Boxing/kickboxing is nothing alien to me and being in a close stand up clinch is great for a taiji guy like pete e says.

    I happen to think my approach to fighting is quite practical. Quite simply if in a clinch it would most likely turn into a stand up grapple - if you really think the taiji principles don't hold up in this scenario I suggest YOU have a stand up grapple with a good taiji guy and let me know how it goes.

    You fail to acknowledge that IMA train in a different ways and produces different attributes. If you cannot beleive this, like I said go and find out for yourself! - I'm reffering to the power generation and how solidly the body becomes connected through the internal structure of tendons as well as effective use of body mechanics.
  14. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    One of the main difficulties of the clinch would be apply a technique to get out of it.

    Someone kneeing you in the ribs is kinda distracting. Not sure in a ring on what I would do, hopefully I will get a chance to play about with it, but if it was outside, call it the Scotsman in me but they would be getting a mouthfull of my napper! :D :p

    That one of my common thoughts in class all the bloody time, many things we are doing I think "I could heid him a cracker right now!"
  15. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Well we have to realise there is no hard and fast answer.
    different stuff will work for/against different people.
    you'de likely look for a joint or a throw/sweep.
    You could stand and trade, or try pulling him down and toward your knees/ground when/if the opportunity arises.

    In a stand up grapple, the sensetivity of taiji comes into its own. By being so close, you can read the other guys body movements well. If you take the guys balance off - you could theoretically do a number of things, including breaking the clinch.

    eg. a short sharp movement one way flowing with the opponent to create oppening/take balance to move and get in a bigger powerful movement/strike from another angle.

    As has been commented these things are better shown than typed up.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2005
  16. pete_e

    pete_e New Member

    Ikken - I'm not asking for 'win techniques' - I know there's no hard and fast answer. I also appreciate that there's no substitute for hands on experience / demonstration, but that doesn't mean that you can't give us some ideas does it? You say its mostly 'body positioning, balance, centering, and strategy' Well I think most IMA folks would feel confident about the balance and centering aspects. How about telling us a little bit about the body positioning and strategy - what are the basics in Muay Thai terms?

    Brido & Geo, thanks for the answers - all things that as a Taiji player I would also consider as possible options. I hope you don't take offence if I concentrate on what the MT guys have to say on this one though - I'm curious to hear about it from their perspective...
  17. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Ok, back on topic... albino apes and Jesus have to take a break... their sides hurt from laughing. :D


    The main thing that will cause a MT fighter to have to really work in the clinch is when the opponent actually knows how to counter the clinch.
    There are literally dozens of techniques for countering clinches and then dozens of techniques for coutnering the counters.... :D

    But to give you an idea... one that I always find particularly tough to deal with is this:

    Lumbar Clinch
    Khun Ya Pa Nang
    (Giant Steals the Girl)

    It's used primarily when your opponent has not been able to lock on with a deep clinch with both hands. You use both your hands to grab his waste and lock them up behind his lower back (lumbar area), at the same time you use your chin and head to drive his head back and get him off balance... drive the chin into the eye socket if possible. If you manage to unbalance him - let your body weight fall on him - with his head extended back he will hit the back of his skull on the floor as he's not able to bring the head forward to protect this kind of a fall because your are forcing his head back with your chin.

    Granted.... this move is illegal in competition. There are many tricky ways to manuever you chin into his eye socket. It doesn't always get seen or called by the ref's unless it's super overt.

    When this one is done with only wraps - as clinch training often is... you can position your knuckles and fist in such a way that it's quite painful in the lumbar region for the opponent if you really work the constricting action... with enough strength and the right angle you can tweak the floating ribs as well. Everytime you feel your opponent exhale you make a big effort to constrict down even further... much the same a python does with a baby rabbit.

    The Cross Up -

    Other counters include bringing a single hands up between your opponents clinched elbows - right hand is collared around his neck.. left hand comes up between the elbows and you end up with both hands on the right side... yank down, hips shift quickly out and then the knee comes flying in to the head. Brutal, effective and harder than hell to avoid if you don't specifically train to counter this counter.

    Other misc. things include working your forearm over his throat... applying pressure to the opponents trachea is a great way to change his mind about clinching. Depending on the variation of this you use... your can risk a foul in competition.

    If you both manage to lock up fairly tight... use the heel of your foot to jam the back of his knee joint or calf muscle. This takes it toll over the course of a round. But it also opens you to being dumped if he manages to throw some torque into his hips.

    Elbows crashing down onto the clavicle are always brutal. Someone attempting to step into the clinch is a good opportunity to hit them with a reverse spinning elbow. Especially if the elbow has a strong downward diagonal to it.

    It's often hard to keep hold of someone who is as slippery as MT fighters get in the ring - so this presents a lot of opportunity to do all kinds of things.

    As I said - there are dozens of things you can do... but unless you train with someone who knows how to clinch properly in the MT style... you're kidding yourself if you think most counters will be very effective against someone intent on tying you up with a clinch.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2005
  18. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    I more than take offence, I am both shocked and outraged!

    I challenge you to a duel! First to down 3 pints of Guinness. I chose the weapons, you choose the pub.

    Bring your own kebab.
  19. pete_e

    pete_e New Member

    Now that's fighting talk! I accept your challenge ya wee rascal - I'll find us a location the next time I'm in Old Kilpatrick! One thing though - only 3 pints?
  20. zac_duncan

    zac_duncan New Member

    Great post stj... it's funny, technichally, those techniques aren't vastly different than what some of the IMA folks on this board have suggested. At the same time Ikken is noting that being able to use the techniques requires "body positioning, balance, centering, and strategy", which as much as I'm loath to admit it, is pretty much was taiji_buttertroll was saying. The distinction of course being that Ikken's saying try it out and TB says he doesn't need to.

    There are about ten great posts on this subject, too bad we have so many more than that.

    Also, TB - "Idiots", "meatheads", "know jack". That's nice, way to have a discussion you hopeless old fool.

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