Defense against Muay Thai Grapple

Taijibutterfly, you brought up the point of Ego.

You are right, defending my Ego is VERY important.

Because as both a MAist and an Occultist the Ego, Will, Kia, and Desire are very powerful tools to be exploited. I do not follow your "peaceful" way, or what is known in my circle as "white magick."

I seek power, knowledge, and godhood. . . . but that is a complete different story. When I practice MA, it is but another step to my goal. You don't like it? Fine. Don't preach to me about right vs. wrong. Morals don't exist.

I respect the opinions on Taiji. I even respect the opinion that it can't be used properly in a Sport MA setting.

But then you use blatanly aggressive and stereotypical statements such as "sport MAs suck. . . " or "kickboxing produces bad people."

OK, let's stop using kickboxing as an example. Let's use Wing Chun and Choy Lay Fut. Traditional Chinese Martial Arts. However, those two often produces angry, emotional, prideful and powerful fighters who want to use their art for this purpose: FIGHTING.

C'mon now, tell me that Choy Lay Fut trains nothing but angry, criminal, and violent people!!!

You make WIDE generalizations, Taijibutterfly. If your points were so "true". . . . . then why does virtually everyone here, IMAists, EMAists, MMAists, and MT fighters all disagree with you? Or do you think you are so above the rest of us that our statements are purely fantastical notions?

Oh I'm sorry, but you don't use your skills in a pressure-tested environment every day. In the classic days of Kung Fu, a practitioner was required to go through rigorous tests and regiments in order to become a walking weapon, to survive, and to fight in wars.

You now propose that we throw all that away, and embrace your so-called "peaceful" philosophy. . . . . . . and advocate that it is the SOLE TRUTH, and the ONLY MORALLY CORRECT path.

 

Calm down it's only a forum dear...

So there I was in the Internal Martial Arts Forum and this bunch of kickboxers all came in... lol I love it! Hey guys I so needed to vent some frustration - this is all highly therapeutic for me - hope you're all enjoying this as much as me? Where else can I wind up a bunch of kickboxers and get away with it? Don't you just love MAP?

Slip the jab - drop the spoon. You know that I know you too well to take your bait lol (nice try tho ) (I hope you also know you inspired me to follow this course just to see what makes you tick lol you are such a sick boy you know... )

Zac - I already detailed my response to the 'dreaded clinch' ( ) from several different angles (see earlier posts). (Note: my art is not 'technique-based' it is energy-based, and my response is determined by the moment I am in. With this system you can only train around stuff and see what comes out in the moment!) But just for you I'll try another explanation:
The clinches shown in that vid earlier and that I have seen in MT over the years have factors in common: They seem to me to happen usually (but not always) after an earlier exchange of blows ie the guy is softened up a bit. They often end fights or determine the outcome by wrecking the clinchee's stamina and body ie a KO. The two basic techniques (yeah, I'm sure there are more ) seem to be a kind of arm-locking manouevre and a head-holding move. In both cases kicks, knees and the occasional hand strike are sent in from outside the clinch making it very difficult to predict where and when the next one will hit or defend against it. The continuous blows tire you out as does the struggle to break out. Both basic methods rely on various factors that are to the advantage of the clincher. Leverage - the attacker is 'outside' the other guys arms holding him trapped inside or holding his head in place, making it difficult for him to get away. Downward pressure stops any attempt to break away by taking centre and control away each time. Energy will always follow attention (mind) so a slight (or great lol) pressure will continually bring the guys attention back to the point of contact. (Also there isn't enough room or momentum for the guy inside to launch a counter attack with any effectiveness.) The only way to stop this is to relax and take the centre yourself - ie go into it closer or remove the leverage. Wearing gloves makes this all but impossible for the guy inside whereas the guy outside only needs downward or squeezing pressure. Without gloves the guy inside would actually have the advantage, but the padding and lack of fingers renders his hands useless. Because centring is not as big a part of EMA as it is IMA - EMA being more about physics, speed, endurance and power expressed through the musculature, it is relatively easy to control another fighter with the clinch. However someone who has a strong centre, good body mechanics and energetics - and their hands not bound up - could mince the clincher easily from inside imo. They can attack the exposed centre line, the limbs and fingers (which have been wasted with the holding). They can lift their legs off the ground and take the guy forwards or backwards to the ground or even go for a scissors attack, they can go down suddenly and attack the groin or simply bite the arms/fingers, they can take the guy's balance as he swings in from outside - only possible with a strong center ie undistracted mind. The main thing that makes this clinch so scary is the wearing of gloves and the MT rules - it doesn't scare me in the slightest tbh lol sorry!
All the above is theory of course, but hey ho lol There is probably loads more stuff to it, but I don't like to get too theoretical - I prefer training tbh (bag and focus mitts tomorrow btw but of course I know nothing about EMA do I? )
No I haven't tried any of the above out against an MT guy because as I said before my whole ethos is NOT to fight with people. Mine is not a life of aggression and fear, competitiveness against others and the illusion of eternal youthful physical prowess. Your agenda's seem to be different imo. Nuff said

Infrazael - there is nothing that I can add to your maniacal ranting that could possibly show you for what you are any clearer than you have already done so yourself.
(I'll probably have a go later tho just for the hell of it lol )
You guys crack me up! Thanks for playing!
:Angel:

 

Taiji Butterfly > I do not appreciate your purposeless attack and bait on my anti-belief system.

If you like, I can point out to you some sources that describe the nature of what I practice. I don't want to argue with you, but would rather like to show you the true nature of things, if you're willing to listen.

 

Exactly as I thought - your post was rubbish.
You got called on the carpet about it and that's the best you can do to respond about it. Sorry to interrupt your cozy Kung Fu fantasy world. Oops - reality reared it's ugly head Mr. I-work-with troubled-youths.
Pffttt!!!!!!!

NEWS FLASH!!!!!!
WE'RE SORRY TO INTERRUPT YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED KUNG FU FANTASY TO BRING YOU THE FOLLOWING NEWS!

for this gem - the only response is....

 

Hilarious !!!

 

even the dogs are laughing

 

hahahahahaha, best post ever from slip. I love that pic and never has it been so appropriate.

Tai ji - You have a lot of things to say, yet zero evidence to support what you are saying. People can talk theoretically all day but when it comes down to the real thing it's usually another story - this is why in the early days of UFC for example the grapplers dominated. People talked about how the biggest punchers and kickers etc. would win. Now in the days where mixed martial arts are more developed, there is a lot of genuine fighting and sparring experience that shows what works on a basic level and what doesn't - obviously there will be new developments and new ideas but your ideas have been tried many times before. Your ideas for techniques you would use are pretty contrived to be honest - try them out one day in a sparring situation, or at least get someone you respect as a fighter who would put themselves in a sparring situation to try them out and watch their complete lack of success.

This sequence of drivel simply eliminates you from commenting with any merit on this subject. You have no knowledge of how this kind of clinching actually functions so how can you say that you can only LET someone control you? You have admitted to never actually experiencing it or having any kind of instruction in it. Have you never noticed that the body goes where the head goes? There are certain key aspects you are completely missing out on. Your attitude towards the techniques is pretty insulting TBH, being high and mighty enough to come up with a flawed theory that you seem to think hasn't been tried and failed countless times - fairly patroning IMO.

I'm not even a kickboxer specifically, I'm just open-minded enough to realise the truth.

 

I think Taijibutterfly's idea is that. . . . .

TAIJI IS 2 d34d1y f0r t3h 5p4rr1ng!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

da pooch say's it all...

 

Doh!

 

I thought this was particularly fitting given the subject...



honestly taiji.. you must be trying to be laughed at here. at LEAST the people arguing against me are backing it up with credible arguements. you havent even clinched with a thai boxer before but apparently have it all figured out? from what exactly?

I know guys who do taiji and who are also very adept at kicking ass so thankfully I know that your level of ignorance is not widespread through taiji...

 

on a more serious note, what slip said earlier is true. the problem with drawing connections between boxing/kickboxing and violence isnt that they are untrue- hell id wager more boxers/kickboxers get in fights than other MAists- but I think it has more to do with the average socio economic level of the people attending. At every gym ive been to the majority of people where hardly what you would call upper class. In fact I was a bit of an outsider at my gym for a while because I am white and obviously come from a slightly more affluent background. And as we all know violence and crime is a lot more common amongst people who are not so well off. From my own experience, a lot of kickboxers- and I mean the real guys, not the posers- come from a background of violence and crime, and have used boxing/kickboxing to give them a goal. being thrown in prison is generally not part of that goal.

 

Don't get me wrong it's not just about your experience in martial arts, and I can respect your opinion..but I think I might have an issue with how you sometime express it..

For example I didn't know your experience, so I asked. I respect TB's opinion because I know he has many years experience in taijiquan. But that is not all his experience is it. Just like your training, does not define your whole experience as a person. Age and time also play a big role too. I am not of the same mind I was in my early to mid twenties for example. I agree with you on the point of morality. I am able to treat it as you do, when it comes to fighting. It is not an issue. I treat people as I find them. I havn't shared TB's experience with kickboxers and the like..Have they all been angels - no. Have I always been an angel - nope..

I know though what TB is getting at. I respect his point of view. Where I live is not so bad, in London people are more careful. But I know that in certain areas, towns etc. in England things are different - in smaller towns. I have an uncle who was in the Police force for many years and reached a high rank - It is a fact that there is more trouble (fightwise) away from the big city..I do not look at the martial art and say well look it attracts the wrong crowd. The people he is getting at are not into it for sport or even betterment I imagine. I don't have a moral issue about it - but I don't respect it either. I'm not into stereotyping - you find wrong'uns everywhere - but you find more under some rocks than others.

Yea sure, but no one is just a fighter are they. When or if I spar or fight morality is void for me - in the sense that I have shaped my morality to encompass it. I only need a motive. But it does not follow that as a human being I don't think about or have morality. What rubs me up about the ways you express your opinion in a couple of your posts is that you seem to want to make a point of making such things mutually exclusive.

First off I am a person who is leading a life. Martial arts is a part of that. I don't see why I should seperate myself.

I think TBH is not so much the morality issue that rubs you up - its the more spiritual/philosophical aspects in IMA..
..though I guess morality gets dragged in somewhere.

Don't get confused about this either you can still have or find a spiritual experience and be accomplished in martial arts fighting and continue to be..

Spirituality/philosophy has an effect on people, I don't agree that we can say it makes anyone less or more in any way - just different in some ways perhaps..
This is at least to be respected.

 

Ahh I see the truth has reared its ugly head!

While I don't disagree with your common sense. I would point out that In IMA training to move first and foremost from the centre plays a v. big part.

It would be my intention then that were my centre goes - the rest follows - including the head. Even if you pull me in by the head you will find my centre - and everything connected to it arrives at you first! In taiji for example we avoid double weighting so to go against you force or resist it is not the idea - but to go with it - to be ahead of it even (ideally) :Angel:

You may not agree, but is is an effective principle and strategy imo.
...but not the only one.

 

TB, I think you'd get a lot more kudos if you tried your theories out. If I said I knew a brand new super-fast swimming stroke but all the swimmers in the room thought I was nuts, I wouldn't go on about the theory - I'd grab my goggles and jump in the pool.

Face it, kickboxing looks tough so a lot more thugs are drawn to this MA than others, but most of them soon get weeded out when they realise it takes training and discipline more than schoolyard bullying. Tai chi looks like it's for p.....ies so anyone who does tai chi either is one or he/she has enough self-confidence to dig deeper and not be bothered about the stigma.

 

i have trained Muay Thai and in fact did work against muay thai clinch in my Xing Yi class on monday. One of my students is a MMAist training with Mark Wier so he knows how to clinch and knee.

In essence the best way to deal with MT clinch knees etc work that i have found is strike the thigh and inside and outside of the knees when they come in.

This is actually far easier than it sounds. most Muay Thia schools teach to either 'take' strikes and exchange them when in the clinch, or simply guard with the forearms.

Instead, strike with the forearms/ elbows by dropping your weight onto the raising knees, or use circular knee striking to the sides of the legs, which can off balance or throw and damage the legs also.

Also striking to the ribs, groin, knees, etc all work well.

It is interesting, when you strike a strike, using a slighlty different angle ... people tend to not want to get into that position again.

so this deals with what you can do if you just stand there .... I will try to put it on film for those interested.

Also though, i good method is to not get into that situation!!! Working against a movement 'to' clinch is very effective, creating of balance throws, open strikes.

cheers
Chris

 

Control

 

uh...yea. You sure can type a good fight, though.

"The kickboxers" are here because the thread title seemed interesting.

As for your assertion that most kickboxers/MT are thugs/criminals, it's laughable. I'll just refer you to SliptheJab's posts, they cover it nicely.

Every criminal I have ever met was wearing pants, therefore pants cause crime?

Only criminals wear pants? Which is it?

 

yes please!- show me 'the true nature of things'

And I would like to show you the dualistic trap you are falling into!

conformity, non-confomity it is the same trap to me. I think all this black vs. white is quite an unrealistic and ultimately unrewarding proposition. Blind alleys..

Please take it to philosophy, and we'll do this. If you are up for it..

Or just PM me, I'm interested to understand more about your philosophy - You will find that I will be honest.. So I'll either agree to parts or try to tear some down or whatever..and I will give you reasons. but its up to you they are your beliefs after all.
How much scrutiny are you prepared to put 'the true nature of things' under?

:Angel:

 

Infrazeal,

Morals exist in people, are you saying people don't exist?
or just that their morals are rubbish.

Do you wish to say that you have no morals or principles?
..I don't think so.