Defense against Muay Thai Grapple

Rubbish

 

So you're saying an IMA player can't be aggressive, amoral, and cruel?

Hmmmm. . . . . remember that Love/Hate exist as a Dual being, as does everything else we perceive.

 

what interest me here is that every time weve talked on chat (which is not often I admit) you have seemed quite friendly. Now on topic I really couldnt care less what your opinion on the thai clinch is because of your total lack of experience. its like a pilot arguing with an air hostess about how to fly a plane. but it is kind of sad that you would be friendly to me in a more interactive setting but still lump me in as "just another thug". I would bet you are the kind of person who would smile and shake my hand if we met in real life, then snipe behind my back next to the water cooler. Whats even more strange is that I am very open with my opinion, on a forum or not. I would think this kind of attitude is healtheir for cultivating qi than being two faced?

 

Just to throw some fuel on the inferno..

This video shows some pretty impressive clinching (atleast from my point of view)

When you think that the guys getting clinched are skilled fighters in the same art (and therefore train in being clinched and clinching regularly) and they still get chewed up and spat out it doesn't give the rest of us much of a chance!

 

yep... they changed the clinching rules in k-1 after Buakaw (the dark skinned guy) cleaned house on the other fighters. John Wayne Parr who himself is an awesome fighter said that the first time he went to thailand to train he thought he was pretty good, until some kids half his size used him as a grappling dummy.

 

hey there, just noticing everyone viewing this thread....hi ikken, eddie, noob, jutsuka!

written communication just seems so ineffective when you see a "simple" question turn into some monstrous thread....its a great example of the grape-vine effect, and lots of fun to watch how everything eventually gets completely twisted into some new wild plot line. better than a night at the movies for sure! =)

 

Averan -- I respect what you said a lot more than Taijibutterfly's. I understand where you are coming from, saying that one should look into one's OWN system for counters, defenses, etc. . .

But we must remember, no style is perfect. In order to defend against the MT clinch, we have to look into it first.

It's like a Northern stylist saying they can beat me at the bridging game. . . . . he he no more comments on that.

 

Seems I got my clinching definitions wrong!

Someone describe clinching!

 

My point exactly. The art lacks an antidote to its own "killer technique" then? lol
There are NO "killer techniques" only great fighters. Perhaps the guys who got chewed up should try some IMA?
(Is it me or is it getting warm in here? LOL )
Look we all train differently. Sure, training MT is one way to understand 'the clinch', but it is only one way. It is not essential. You can read, watch vids etc then team up with a partner and practice ways out and counters. Also if you train EMA it does affect the IMA aspect ime. If you are okay with that, fine. I am not ok with that. I train people to deal with externally-driven attacks but those same techniques will not be effective against similar attacks driven in an internal way. This is virtually impossible to explain in words - you have to experience it. (Prepares for tirade from all EMAists present with a resigned grin on his face... )
Like I said earlier, take the gloves off, take it out of the ring, take the rules away and suddenly that "killer technique" is just a move like any other with 101 ways to beat it if you train well enough and long enough. The root of all those ways (from my inexperienced mere IMA perspective, of course ) will be controlling your own centre and then theirs. The clinches I saw in the vid posted all rely on pulling or holding the clinchee's attention at the point of contact. Because of this the guy seems to just stand there and get finished. This is one of the ways that IMA descibes as 'stealing the centre'. The main thing that would help get you out of it (your hands) are bound up inside gloves. The other way is to shift balance by getting your feet up and taking it to the deck either forwards or backwards - but OH? you're not allowed to go on the deck in 'da ring' are you? You also can't bite him or spit in his eyes. There are no solid objects to steer the clinch into to break its 'centre', just bouncy absorbent ropes....
So it's an artificial scenario and (IMO) pretty pointless training for it unless you want to go fight MT for money and/or glory - and that's ok with me too btw, but not FOR me personally.
I'd also like to know what ethical and moral training is being given in MT/kickboxing schools and where the instructor's responsibility in it is. My experience of EMA schools so far has been poor health and safety, minimum regard for legality of street-usage of said arts and no understanding of the MA's philosophical/moral base...
My principle objection is the character of MT boxers I've met who swagger around and think they're invincible while picking on untrained members of the public to prove that.
If you train sport - good for you, but don't preach to me about the invincibility of your 'martial art' and my urgent necessity to train in it.
You're dreaming lol
:Angel:

 

Ok I'm just gonna post what I'd do as a taijiquan player..

first I'd get closer, closer than close..

Not room for much here, no room for knees to come up etc. I go for my own clinch..of sorts.

My right arm wraps round the back of his neck pulling him in even closer..
My left forarm slides in accross the front of his neck/cheek area. One pulls in the other pushes up/out against jawline, *little edit*
-ideally his head would not go straightup/ back but be turned to the side then back making a sort of twist. neck snaps, I call the paramedics. jubbly.



The chances of pulling this off I would say are no better or worse than being put in that sort of clinch in the first place..

 

Slip the jab taught me everything I know...

Intelligent post, might work in practice, I'd try something like that for sure - as mentioned before, it also 'steals the centre' -

(tell that to the guy's next of kin lol )
Now watch the hurt ego's come baying for our blood... lol
(Glad I'm not the only one who's gonna 'get it' in here btw... :bang: :bang: :bang: bring it on - I like the spiritual training )
To (mis)quote an old Shaw Brothers' movie: "Great [Geo]! Let's die together!"
(There is a prize for knowing which movie that is btw)
:Angel:
(EDIT: If striking, blocking, clinching and evasion (within very clear and restrictive rules) are the scope of your art, then "control" is a far more limited concept for you, one you may find it hard to reconcile. There is nothing wrong with limits in a style imo as long as you know what they are and make an adult decision about whether you accept said limitations or expand your knowledge base in whatever way you choose... My approach to MA is to learn all about control, develop and strengthen my energy and spirit then combine that with physical skill and training. It is just one way but I think it is the core of what I have been developing for the last twentyish years and it works ime)
:Angel:

 

Taijibutterfly, your posts make me think you have absolutely no experience with EMAs.

And when were we talking about the invincibility of MT or any other EMA? I have said many times that I clearly respect the power of IMAs, because I've been on the receiving end of them.

What YOU make is untrue, rude, and arrogant remarks about EMA based on your experience alone, and your trash talking is really getting you somewhere.

Stop being an IMA elitist, stop trying to preach morals to people. This is where I draw the line. MA isn't about morality. It's about learning how to hurt people.

 

Has anyone here read "Masters and Methods" by Robert Smith? You know the first guy he mentions? Hung I Hsiang? Big hairy guy, liked to drink, liked to fight? They called him little elephant? I believe Smith said something like he couldn't imagine a better ally if thing turned physical?

Yeah, well that's who my kung fu comes from. That man, whle hardly portrayed as a saint by Smith was hell on wheels in a fight, and likely ten times the internal martial artist that any of us will ever be. It certainly didn't seem through Smith's description that Hung was anything other than a kung fu teacher, certainly not one to preach morals.

Why in the world should it be anything else?

Also, if this is going to degenerate into your fantasy land version of what martial arts IMAs in particular should be morally, then let's start another thread. This one's about the clinch, which I doubt you've ever been in.

 

How long have you been training?

Is it anything aproaching 20 yrs?

Your answer zac is that people are not 1 dimensional. Not Hung I Hsiang either I bet..

Some of us can even think about stuff and fight OMG

 

I've been training for about 12 years, though not anywhere near that long in CMA.

I'm also not saying that you need to be one dimensional. I'm merely stating that you don't NEED morality in a martial art, and that one art doesn't inherently produce more "moral" practitioners than another. You can be a thinker and a fighter, of course but you don't need to be.

I've met, trained and sparred with some very, very good american kickboxers. They are consistantly amongst the nicest people I've met. Butterfly's statement very much rubs me the wrong way.


Sorry though if I don't have enough experience for you to respect my opinion. :cry:

 

No offense, but this is one of the most absurd paragraphs I've ever read in my life. You want to justify that boxers and kickboxers are violent by using criminals as an example?? And then you want to justify that the other schools of MA are better because the criminals committed nonviolent offenses???

I'm sorry, but your justification for labeling hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people based on the experiences of a few reeks of potential bigotry. Every person is an individual. Did you ever stop to think that maybe some personalities might gravitate toward MT because of it's combat effectiveness and the relative speed with which you can learn practical applications? Instead you blame a "culture of violence" which I contend doesn't actually exist.

I'm disappointed. I'd thought you were above forming and falling back on stereotypes.

 

Mmmm - I'm lovin' it!

:Angel:
PS I notice nobody is interested in my tactical points on the thread topic or expressing concern for my mate btw It just goes to show that defending your ego's is more important than anything else. OH, but you don't need morality or philosophy do you? (But you're not thugs tho are you? Hmmmm)
"IS THAT ALL YOU GOT?" (Ali to George Forman in the Rumble in the Jungle)

 

Hmm seems to me that your attempting to blame MT and Kickboxing for society's ills. Sorry but that doesn't wash. While you may have spent some time working in correctional facilities it doesn't sound as if you've ever spent much time down at a boxing ring... MT, Kickboxing or Boxing. If you had then you'd find that there are many more predominant socioeconomic factors that contribute to troubled teens and criminal offenders than something like MT or Kickboxing.

Trying to say the kids end up incarcerated is because they at one point taken up Muay Thai, Kickboxing or Boxing is pure rubbish and you know it. Quite the opposite may in fact be true. At my gym we have lots of kids who would otherwise have plenty of idle time on their hands and end up in trouble if they weren't around the positive influence that we attempt to instill in our fighters. We've seen kids that train for a short bit and then go back to the social circles that they were in prior to Muay Thai - we find that many of them end up in trouble... this is due to their social environment not due to having trained in MA's. You assertion is non sequiter.

I'd have to say it's quite a postive one. We ofte train kids who would otherwise end up in trouble. Several of our fighters came in with very little self discipline and very low self esteem. Through training and through the positive influence of the gym many of them found the self confidence that they lacked before. Many of them were able to deal with the violent childhoods they'd grown up with... and most importantly they got a paradigm shift that being 'tough' and able to 'kick ass' isn't what they thought before. In short much of their world view changed. Many of the kids come from government housing estates and have criminal records... many out of abusive families. I'm quite happy to say that I think our gym has provided a positive outlet for them and has instilled many of them with self confidence and self discipline.

Big deal. My younger brother spent a fair amount of time in and out of correctional institutions and the state pen. In my neighborhood, having convictions was more common than a highschool diploma. We didn't have boxing gyms, MT coaches or anything like that. Consequently there was far too much time for kids to get into trouble. Idle time as they say....

You're trying to make a link to MT and Kickboxing that doesn't exist beyond preexisting socioeconomic conditions. At least you don't seem to be able to back up anything different beyond an anecdotal level.

hunh what? Again I suggest you look at the socio economic factors involved. There usually are not other MA classes offered in crap neighborhoods. Great thing about boxing was that all you needed was to show up. We'll loan kids a pair of shorts and wei've got showers. Beyond that all they have to do is shut up, listen and learn. Dozens of kids I know have found self respect through MT and Boxing. Self respect that wasn't in abundance prior to training. If a kid doesn't respect himself then he's not going to respect others.

I'm not sure what your row with Ikken was all about - but you assertions about MT and other combat sports being responsible for societies is complete baloney. I suggest perhaps you spend some time in a boxing gym or an MT gym before you attempt to tar everyone with the same brush. :bang:

 

It's hard to take your tactical points very seriously when it seems that all your interested in is stirring up an argument. So you feel that the MT clinch is just one way of controlling center? That's valid. Care to give some actual technical advice on how to deal with beyond going for soft tissues? Despite my disagreeing with your POV regarding morality in the arts, I am more than interested in hearing what you've got to say about the clinch, prefferably when it's not wrapped up in fuel for the flame war you started.

 

Agreed.
And then after that... I guess the next question would be... have you ever actually gone up against an MT fighter who is intent on putting the clinch on you?

(Someone with a record or who trains at a reptuable gym - not one someone who once saw an ad for clinching and then told you about it.. LOL!)