Defense against Muay Thai Grapple

At first, I was sliding out, then he got me in a better position, so I threw a few knees, then I tried pushing him away, that opened me up and got hit with a knee on my cheek. That was the first time I've been in a real clinch, so I didn't really think as I should've.

 

Hi Colin,
I have to agree with you on these points as many of the so called IMA practitioners do not include any type of clinch scenarios in their training.
There is (as you know) free pushing in Tai Chi Chuan which should be applied with sensitivity where one can listen to the partners energy through touch and do something about it.
Unfortunately many free pushing hand scenarios turn out to be similar to a Sumo Wrestling match where strength versus strength but with little technique being applied.
This has both an upside and a downside.
The upside is that it gives the practitioner who is only using Tai Chi principles a chance to use their skills against someone using strength only,or the downside is that both practioners use strength and it degenerates into a poor sumo contest.
BTW,easy to say,but bloody hard to actually apply without regular practise with different partners.
My point is that unless artists practise with different scenarios such as the above and take it further to moving step free pushing and sparring where anything goes,most artists will have the crap kicked out of them by the MT practitioner.
Tim Cartmell trained in Taiwan for 10 years and won several Asian full contact competitions and although i have never met the guy he seems to be able to do the business.
You guys may be interested to check out www.samiberik.com
Sami is a practioner of Tai Chi Chuan and trains under Neil Rosiak www.fightingtaichi.com and has fought in Cage Rage fights,some of the fight are highlighted on the fight reel and Sami's training is shown on the training reel on the website.

Regards,

Mark.

 

I have started going to some other Martial Arts classes when not at Tai Chi, and one of those is Judo on a Saturday morning. I consider myself a Taiji player so anything I do I try and fit it in with my Tai Chi. Randori (think moving step) is quite interesting. They find me quite hard to set up and get in a throw or sweep because I keep my body so relaxed and when they push or pull I move with the force. The only throws that have worked on myself so far are sacrifice throws, the ones where they throw themselves to the ground too.

One guy did sweep me all the time, but he was good enough to tell me why -when shuffling about I would bring my foot in too close to the other which made me easy meat, boot the leg and I have no base to stand on. Sorted that now though

I haven’t got a proper hip throw in myself yet (almost there!) but I can sweep them or just pull or push them the way they were going, I guess because I am relaxed.

Now I know there is a degree of being nice to me, but when you get them down once or twice, you can see the “*******” look on there face and they stop being quite so nice

It’s good fun, and Judo, believe it or not, is teaching me loads about Tai Chi. I would recommend Judo to anyone, it's a great art. Can't wait to be a bit more established in the club and they just go for it with me, then will be the real test

Groundwork though I get chewed alive, still working that one out

 

Hey Mark,

You're bang on about scenarios mate, what I think lots of people forget is the martial in Tai Chi/Bagau etc. What I'd like to know though, are these guys using their MMA knowledge to better apply the IMA fundementals or are they doing MMA and then going 'Look! It's all in the forms!" and reinterpreting stuff (and would there actually be anything wrong with that?).

Next time we catch up Mark we can have a wee play with clinching (I'm so gonna regret this )

A problem with the mentality of people doing pushing hands is trying to 'win', rather than training their sensitivity.

 

Hi Brido,
My Teacher Ian Cameron practised Judo before taking up Tai Chi Chuan in Hong Kong and i guess that it must have helped.
You mentioned the throwing side of the art-You will know that Dan often likes to distract the opponent by hitting them before the throw is applied and this is often the way that it is practised although the initial blow is implied rather than actually carried out.
The main thing is that the opponent's 'root' 'balance' 'structure' must be broken in order to execute a good throw.

Good Luck with the Judo.

Cheers,

Mark.

 

Hi Colin,
Look forward to meeting up-Maybe at next mixed arts session at HW?
It is good to experiment with other artists and i class myself to be fortunate to have done a bit with you guys in the past.
It is true what you say about the pushing hands and it is easy to fall into this trap where winning is paramount.
Let me know what you think about the Sami Berik stuff.

Regards,

Mark.

 

This thread is amazing. Look at professional fights, you'll see people who've trained clinching and counters for years getting tied up and beaten freaking senseless.

Seriously people, if you get clinched, you're in deep sh_t. I don't care if it's MT, greco roman, tae-bo, whatever the clinch means he's got you where he wants you.

The only way to deal with that is to do as Ikken and stj said and study the clinch with people who do it well. Personally, I've never crossed hands with a good MT guy (I hope to soon), but one of my sparring partners is an american kickboxer and former all-state wrestler. Believe me when I say that if you don't clinch experience, when he gets ahold of you, you're screwed, fight over, you lost. Even with experience there, you're still probably screwed.

Good luck.

 

Flame ON lol

If you buy this whole "he has control" BS then you deserve everything you get if you find yourself in a "clinch" imo
"Control" begins in the mind...
"Control" is a concept that can change several times a second in sparring and fighting ime...
Control exists only in the moment, it belongs to he who takes it in that moment...
You can let it go or have it taken away in the next moment at any time.

This thread seems to me to be another MAP "style versus style concept-bashing session" therefore I will say my bit for what (little) it's worth and wait for my (inevitable) return bashing lol:

If you try to fight a MT boxer on his terms you will lose - period. :bang:

just as...

If you try to fight a Baguachang boxer on his terms you will lose - period. :bang:
(Assuming roughly equal levels of skill obviously)
"It isn't about styles, it's about individuals blah blah blah etc etc..." Yeah, let's take that as read and get to the point...
Therefore the "point" is about the "control" issue imo.
My attitude is this: No-one can control me unless I allow them to - think about that carefully before you jump on it. You may scream "but-but-but" all you like on this one, but that is my honest opinion.
Now, I would never personally get into a ring, put gloves on and train MT. Why? Because from my IMA viewpoint there is no real point to that. the training system runs counter to the neijiaquan principles I train in and I am on MT turf doing it the MT way before I even get started. (I know others train IMA differently, but this is my 'bit' so there you have it )
Take the ring and the gloves (and the 'rules') away and I start to get more interested...
I'd still not fancy it tho, because ime most kickboxers are highly aggressive fighters with little regard for other human beings or personal self-control - just look at the attitude of the MT guys posting in this thread - all aggression and dominance.... Why bother going there? Train to wreck the guy before or during close-quarters - on your own terms. Better still don't get into the situation in the first place!!
BTW I have had close friends beaten up by kickboxers over the years. Always without just provocation. A good friend of mine was assaulted recently because he tried to talk to an 18 year old kickboxer who'd been bullying his foster child. The guy attacked him within one minute causing serious and permanent damage to his eyesight. He is now on bail for GBH on my friend and ABH on the boy (frankly I hope he gets a long sentence and meets all the wing rapists while he's in there :bang: )
Now I know you'll scream 'but-but-but' again, BUT that is my experience and I have little respect for the kickboxing/MT discipline standards I have met so far in the UK. More often than not ime it is the chosen art of violent people. I am sure there are decent folks who do it but I think the type of training tends to affect the person long-term anyway.
I once had a kickboxer come and view my class - ok, fair enough - but when I questioned him closely it turned out the only reason he wanted to train tjq was because he had been beaten by a wing chun/taijiquan cross-trainer in a fight. Wrong reason imo. He was rude, agressive and intimidating, showed little respect for me or my students and ignored my statements that I could not give him what he was looking for. He didn't stay and I didn't want him as a student particularly.
Hey ho.
To sum up:
A.) I'd avoid fighting a kickboxer if possible under all circumstances.
B.) Assuming I couldn't avoid it and ended up in a Clinch? I'd probably go for a counter using claw/finger techniques to neck, eyes, nerve-centres and ears tbh, if I couldn't get that I'd take it to the ground asap - my main concentration would be on taking the guy's balance to neutralize the assault as much as possible.
I expect I've offended loads of people here - but guess what?
That's YOUR problem! LOL
:Angel:

 

Edit - I typed a nasty message here. It wasn't really called for.

Let's just say that I could not disagree with Butterfly more.

 

Wow, I feel so ashamed, to compensate for my violent mind set and atone for my sin's I will go and stand under a waterfall and attempt to meditate on Karma

The bit I particularly like Taiji, is how you criticise all the MT'ers and Kickboxers on the thread and give as evidence their aggressive posting style when you'r post is just about one of the most offensive and least respectfull I have ever seen on MAP

Edit: however I must give some Kudos for the very nice set up, you post something nasty about how aggressive Kickboxers are and generally are mean to them then you'r nicely set up to go "Ahhaaa! You see, they are aggressive!" When they get annoyed

 

the flames of ignorance grow higher and higher!

 

Yep, I listen to Arch Enemy too

Seriously though guys, what Ikken's saying is hardly a foreign language. It's simple - if you have no understanding of the thai clinch then good luck trying to counter it. Theorising about putting someone slightly off balance and talking about Tim Cartwell and his background in ba gua and ju jitsu is pointless when you could just go down to a muay thai club and learn how it works. So what if this doesn't go exactly according to the philosophy of an internal martial art? Things evolve and improve over time.

 

:Angel:

 

The worst thing is that it probably does fit fine with the "philosophy" of the arts in question, but people think that they can simply counter it through some vague concepts, rather than learning about it and working against it.

Most martial arts have some degree of clinch work, maybe not to the extent that MT does, but the techniques are there, it's just up to people to get their damned hands dirty and try it. Some people would rather spout some philosophical crap about what control is or isn't. Other people would point to some IMA practitioners that they've never met or trained with as some sort "proof" that their stuff works. The truth is that you can't beat another person with a concept or with someone elses success. You've got to do that with your hands.

 

Very true.

 

Taijibutterfly, we've talked before. Now I don't know you personally or anything, but this post just about made me throw up.

When will people start realizing the point of martial arts? Originally, they were made so you could beat up and pound people, survive, and win battles.

I don't know Taiji history, but hell that's what "Hung Gar", "Choy Lay Fut," and "Xing Yi" were meant for.

And you don't think the old schoolers sparred? LOL it makes me laugh.

Why do you think Xing Yi guys will study Tai Ji and Ba Gua? It's because they believe there is something of value in those arts (which there are). Why do you think people like Chan Heung learned Hung Gar, Fut Gar and other Northern systems? Because he wanted something more effective and devastating.

To learn how to defeat an enemy you have to put yourself in his shoes.

Seriously. . . . the so-called "TMA" guys are NOT what "TMA" is supposed to mean at all. . . . . . in actuality, I think "TMA" and "MMA" mean very similar things when you get to real "TMA."

oh yeah Zac, I'm still debating what IMA to do lol. I was shown a Tai Ji move last Friday which literally knocked me back 4 feet, that was pretty scary. But I still think Xing Yi though due to its aggressiveness.

Also, I might take up some Muay Thai/MMA real soon.

Taijibutterfly, I have to ask you a question. Why do you bash MMA/Kickboxers so much in your thread? It seems like you do Tai Chi because it is "peaceful."

The way I see it, it's people who advocate "spirituality" so much that they don't understand what "spirituality" truly means. I mean the mind of a warrior. Like Musashi put it "A warrior is all passion, yet he shows none."

 

watch out for the sweep....

Agree. BUT "The Truth" is always a good 'un. There are many, many truths...ime - use whatever works ime... ...a fighter without a philosophy or a strategy is just a thug tho imo:
Meat and aggression + some skills = MA thug rather than a Martial Artist imo - not my scene tbh (and here are plenty of them in the IMA world too btw)
I make my concepts one with my hands (or feet, elbows, knees, head etc) - it's a classical 'concept': yi leads qi leads li (and all words of one syllable too for anyone with a fat lip or who might have been punched in the head too many times... lol )
...with practice and development you can be a good boxer and moral and intelligent and peaceful....

Yeah I was particularly proud of that one lol (Try reading my post again without emotion btw - just as an experiment in objectivity... )
:Angel:

 

Yeah, sure, with practice one can be a good boxer and peaceful and friendly and filled with qi and be best friends with Rainbow Brite. All things are possible. But what does that have to do with what you said earlier?

You've never sparred a good kickboxer, because you think they're thugs, but you can sit here and tell us that if a good fighter clinches you it's be cause you let them do it?



Here it is, plain and simple: If you don't train with people skilled in the techniques you want to defend against, you won't gain skill to defend against these techniques.

No amount of steering the conversation away from the topic changes that.

 

Personally I would try and give the ******* a big sloppy kiss.

That will break the clinch!

Either that or I get raped...

Win some and lose some.

 

Nuff said
:Angel: