Defense against Muay Thai Grapple

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Steiner, Oct 28, 2005.

  1. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    well he was testing something.. peoples gullibility perhaps.

    Houdini could do some cool stuff too, but I don't know if he could fight.
  2. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    My teacher is Chinese and very proud of his Chinese heritage he is an expert in Tai chi and Tibetan internal arts. However it may interest you to know that he agrees with the statement I made about the majority of internal artists not knowing how to use it in a fighting situation.

    It is not always a question of choosing to fight or not. What will you do if you get attacked on the street, will you not try to fight? If you do chose to fight how helpful will your Tai chi be, can you use it, do you know how to use it? Sorry but most don’t and cant.
    Will your gentle pushing hands practice help you if you were attacked by a fast, aggressive fighter.
    I’ve seen people try to use their tai chi and most times they will brake out of it and fight just like any other person.
    I am not putting down internal arts, as I said before I think modern training and a misunderstanding of training principles is at fault, not the art. It’s sad to see.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2006
  3. Sandus

    Sandus Moved Himself On

    This is an uneducated statement. The fact that you have made it proves that you have not seen, nor do you really comprehend taijiquan.
  4. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Is it...Hmmmm :rolleyes:
  5. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    hey Narrue my instructors say the same thing too. Like I said I didn't have a problem with what you said in your original post on the whole. That's why I left it alone..for a while, but no you had to stick the boot in. As far as I can tell it is well accepted that IMA and taijiquan in particular take more time and effort to use instinctively and well if at all.. some would even say we are all just playing at tjq.. :D

    Do you think that will stop me from doing my best? Think again..
  6. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Well good GEO I really hope you do learn how to use Tai Chi for fighting and for health because that’s real Tai chi. The problem is finding a teacher that can use it first, that’s the first problem. Then you have the problem of actually learning it and as you probably know is not easy. If however your teacher does not know how to use it you need to get a new teacher.
  7. brahman

    brahman Banned Banned

    how is it exactly this is an uneducated statement. the guy told you what he has witnessed with his own two eyes.
  8. Sandus

    Sandus Moved Himself On

    He said that the people would forget their taiji and fight like "any other person." In my experience (and all the research I've done has said nothing to the contrary), taijiquan is a process by which your movement gradually becomes instinctual. This means that it's not something you can "break out of" under set circumstances. Your body is essentially retaught how to move. It becomes a part of you, just as much as walking or eating with silverware. Has a guy ever forgotten how to use a fork because he was panicked? Doubtful.

    That's what separates internal arts from external. One teaches you moves. The other teaches you how to move.
  9. Tao136

    Tao136 New Member

    People have forgotten more than just how to use a fork because of panic. Panic can make you forget almost what you want to achieve with your training (except technical skills) is to be able to handle the panic/fear when the situation occurs.

    The only way to do this imo is to get as familiar with the situation as possible (without going out and getting into fights) and that means you have to expose yourself to contact training. Otherwise you will have a rough awekening when that first blow makes impact, no matter of style. Of course you will always have thoose who are natural fighters and can adept to the situation but they are a rare breed imo. You have to train as real as possible without having to face reality. Just take a look at military and police training.

    Here in lies the problem with some of the training in the IMA and in Martial Arts in general i guess. To much focus on health, to little knowledge or understanding of it's original purpose. At least thats my experience.
  10. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Hmm... pretty high handed way to go about moderating. :D

    I think you're a bit off base here. It's not an uneducated statement... he's stating a scenario that is completely possible. To try to make further conclusions about his comprehension of Taiji is premature at best... completely silly at worst.

    That is could be a completely possible scenario. Not only for Taiji but for any martial art. There are a massive amount of variables that can be applied to this scenario... not the least of which would be amount of training, the indviduals ability to respond to an adrenalin stress scenario and the particulars of a said attack or incident.

    Key word being gradually. This doesn't mean that all Taiji practitioners are at this level or will get to this level. You will have a very small amount on either extreme end and a very large amount in the middle.

    No it doesn't. Not at all. You're attempting to appy a blanket ideal to a very large number of practitioners... it doesn't work. The body is only retaught how to move over a very long course of time... and hopefully within that course of time there is some actual pressure testing under an adrenalin stress scenario... or it's highly likely that much of what has been trained will go right out the window under the effects of an adrenalin surge.

    You're attempting to draw an analogy here that makes little sense. One doesn't generally find themselves needing to use the motor skills of a using a fork while under adrenalin stress. So in short the analogy falls flat. Additionally fine motor skills (as in eating with a fork) would go right out the window for the vast majority of people under an adrenalin stress situation.

    Sorry but that statement is incredibly weak.
    With both internal and external arts you can learn how to move.Trust me no one is born knowing how to move like a boxer - yet by the average definition boxing is an external art.
  11. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Thank you Narrue, I have been studying under two instructors and have recently begun with a third. They are able to use their training to fight..
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2006
  12. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    I have to say that after 18 years of practice in various martial arts, both external and internal with some very good teachers, i can safely say that the situation discribed by Narrue is not only accurate of tai chi but true of nearly all arts i have encountered.

    The current situation of martial arts in general in the west (and largely in the east) is not what it once was ... this is true of most arts .... from Karate to long fist, from shaolin to silat. These are popular arts with a large base. In some ways this allows for greater fragmentation … in others it keeps the guys at the top on their toes.

    Arts like Xing Yi, Tai Chi and Ba Gua are almost dead in the west … there are just a few adepts teaching small numbers that are able to express these arts a little… Even then most cannot replicate the abilities of the non-public masters in china, Taiwan etc.

    One thing that I have learnt from the long discussions with my teacher is that there are people in this world that are out of the limelight … away from the glare of camera’s and UFC that have skill of such level it is almost impossible to put across in words. He has spent 25 years searching out these people. After seeing them, the games we play here are like that of a toddler.

    With the introduction of performance based arts like wu shu and Xtreme martial arts, with the heavy focus on combat sport format, reality based self defence etc the traditional systems as taught by mediocre or lower level teachers have little to no place in our times.

    Unfortunately with people being able to pick up an instructors certificate in tai chi over a weekend in some areas the tai chi world is dieing … It is in fact nearly dead as my teacher has told me many times. Even those with excellent skill compared to their brothers around the country don’t have 'it' … There are few that really do here in the west.

    Traditional lineages are becoming fragmented and diffuse with people standing on the shoulders of their peers without applying the hard effort needed to achieve something.

    Whether people like to admit it or not hard work and real effort are the only things that can help us evolve. Training here and there in this and that and coming up with something to pass on is no ‘way’.

    When talking of tai chi there are teachers in every town, every city and most villages … go to a boxing gym for 6 months then go and friendly test these teachers … can they stop you? most will be on the floor quickly. This is the reality of Tai chi in the UK.

    If your MAIN goal is to fight … and to be able to fight quickly …. Go to a good RBSD instructor for a couple of months … once you can defend yourself REALISTICALLY, look to Tai Chi from a high level instructor and evolve. This is my humble opinion.

    Those who are able to express the traditional arts (regardless of style) for real are few and far between ... but are extra-ordinary in there abilities.

    There is a reason why Ba Gua was only taught to people that were ALREADY masters by dong hai chuan, why tai chi time and manny hours per day to ‘LEARN’, why Xing Yi adepts just stood in san ti for 3 years….

    We don’t do this anymore! But we aim for the level of these people ….

    I have said it many times … strange world …. :D

  13. reikislapper

    reikislapper see you on the flypaper

    I do have to agree with you on your point with the external side of MA as you know I used to train in Mauy thai before I had heart surgery, I'd love nothing more than to go back to it as it was my first love in MA even though I'd done karate before. With tai chi, yes it's really hard to learn all the moves and settle with going internal when you have been used to going for speed and getting a result with getting your partner down on the floor and winning a knockout before they did it to you :Angel: :D, I loved them really lol.
    I have to admit though I did try and learn the form but I couldn't get the grasp of the internal stuff as it was so unreal and I wasn't used to that side of it, I wonder if anyone has had the same problem coming from a external side of training. I used to get really uptight when I was trying to go internal as I was trying to remember the moves and I couldn't do both at the same time and I ended up making a hash of the whole thing so I just gave up lol.
    You have to give respect for anyone who can do internal MA and come from a external side as they seem to grasp how to connect with the energies and show how it can be done the easy way. I just wish I could have found a way round it instead of losing my energies to anger and having to sort them out through disruptions in the last couple of months but I've had time out and enjoyed the rest lol. I don't know if I'll go back to trying out tai chi again as certain area's have put me off in the teaching but I'll have to think that one out before I go down that road again lol. I've got plenty of time for that one anyway but I can do a few things at home as see where that takes me, the energy is still the same no matter what you do ;), have fun training.
    lisa xx
  14. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Yes real Tai chi is almost dead, most certainly. Is it any wonder when you have people saying that Tai Chi is not for fighting but just for health. Any high level teacher would laugh at such statements. Tai Chi is for both health and a fighting art. Its funny how in modern times you can get instructors which call themselves experts and yet they don’t even know what they are doing. Sure they know how to do forms but if you stopped them and simply asked them to explain the application of the form you would be shocked to see how many so called experts don’t have a clue what their doing. Tai chi in many places is now just a dance practiced for health and nothing more. If you practice it as a fighting art you will still get all the health benefits, don’t let anyone tell you any different. Most of the people who will disagree with this are those who don’t know how to use tai chi and thus try to cover that fact over by saying its not the purpose or its not the correct way to think, test them and see if what I said is true or not, do it and find out the truth of the situation for yourself. Next time your teacher is doing a form kindly ask him to demonstrate how to apply the form as a martial arts application. If he/she makes excuses why they are not willing to demonstrate the application you should start to wonder if your teacher really knows tai chi at all.

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