Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Steiner, Oct 28, 2005.
Iron face trainning?
For a long long time i used to think i was learning Muay thai with karate, when in truth i was being tricked.
But if you have ever worked with a good muay thai guy, to fight against the clinch, get as familiar with it as he is. Get familiar with bad breath range and close quarters, atleast then you will not panic when in close quarters or clinching.
If he has you in the clinch, its basically game over, but dont go down without a fight.
TRY to drop your elbows into his thighs when he throws knees. Will not work if he is going for your legs or has your head really low. Still, it's better then nothing. If you studied kung-fu at all, try to use "Pheonix eye" strikes into his biceps. No matter what you do, you'll probably be eating knees, so you might as well do something to hurt him as well, even though he is dominating. Use pheonix eyes or "tiger palms"(striking with the middle knuckles, a variation of making a fist) on the biceps and arms while he is holding you.
Think offensively, dont focus too much on "Oh ****, knees are coming, knees are coming" think, "knee me, and ill castarate you"
Your screwed either way, so do SOMETHING atleast.
Why dont YOU initiate the clinch? Your own i mean.
Throw them. If your art teaches you to strike from the clinch then strike from the clinch and try and beat them but if your art doesnt teach that then there is no way you can win by striking.
I presume your art has some throwing in it so just use that, plenty of MT gyms don't teach defence against throws over the hip so use it to your advantage if you do.
Just thought I'd point out there's a good thread on MT clinching in the general discussion thread: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36667
Yeah crazy idea there... actually learn what is going on in a proper MT clinch to help you defend against it. Shocking really.
Sorry - I won't do it again!
I dunno. The first picture on that thread shows a clinch that looks pretty familiar from wrestling. What is so special about the MT clinch? I'm not disputing its effectiveness. I want to understand its mechanics as best I can without actually visiting a MT gym (something I'd be interested in, but I can barely afford my judo club at the moment).
So, what separates the MT clinch from other clinches? I will also be sure to read the whole thread that the picture is on.
There isn't anything special about a MT clinch, I've been in one many times when I was doing MT but it's the way it looks to people outside MT and that's what I'm sure that bothers them. There must be plenty of folk in MT who would be willing to show you how it's done and maybe even willing to give you a go then you would be able to see for yourself when the best time to use this technique.
i hope this is usefull you prob were told this already but, ive been doing thai boxing for 6 years.when he clinches you move your hips in and against his come up on the balls of your feet arching ur back and ur neck backwards, watch the elbows. if his elbows aren't together slip ur hand and arm through and grab his neck get the other arm through as well grab his neck now ur in controll now knee the ****e out of him. if he is to strong or else good at thai, hip to hip arch back, put ur right shin flat across his two thighs it mite sound strange but it works u have to have good balance to pull it off. or else do what i do wait for the knees to come and bring the elbow down on the thigh. only for stand up clinch nice1 oh if hes irish u mite aswell give up ! go on the irish fighters nice1
I have trained in both internal and external MA and one thing I have to be honest and say that most internal martial artists are not good fighters.
I’m not saying that the art is at fault, I would say its how internal MA is trained in modern times that is at fault.
Most internal martial artists don’t do enough physical conditioning and therefore are physically quite weak.
There is nothing in classical internal arts that says you should not do hard physical training but it seems to be the case with what I call modern internal arts.
Being physically unfit is an obvious disadvantage when fighting a MT guy.
Don’t give me the stuff about using your Qi, that’s no compensation for a body that is not conditioned.
Internal martial artists are very guilty of practising unrealistic sparing also. If many of them where to fight against a really aggressive, powerful and fast opponent they would soon wake up and smell the coffee.
Also too much theory and not enough practice, I would do this, I would do that….talk is cheap, action is rich.
I think internal MA if trained in the old way are very good fighting systems, pity it’s so difficult to find today.
Most internal martial artists if put in a ring with a good MT guy will find it tough.
Its fine to say neutralise your opponent, absorb his force into emptiness, issue explosive force, stick, lead him out of balance, root yourself, expand your qi ete etc say what you will…..its easy to say it all..try it and see if its as easy as you think.
Another thing, internal and external…what is the difference? Only knowledge and once you have it you can apply it to anything then external and internal are the same.
Oh my. This gonna be interesting.
I agree with you on that one lol.
very true (appart from maybe the last sentence).
Whether most IMAists choose to accept it or not is another matter. People should expect to go to an Internal martial arts class and work hard, feel pain and confront their mental/physical barriers.
Funnily enough alot of new people in my classes are supprised by this ... 'I thought there would be more soft stuff, that was quite painful' coupled with the sentence 'I want to learn to fight and defend myself'.
It is a strange world of opinions the Internal Martial Arts inhabit!!
I'll be sure to keep that in mind next time I decide to try my hand at Muay Thai.
I suggest you lay off the Muay Thai and concentrate on your english studies.
My take on it woudl be that the biggest difference between the MT clinch and the wrestling collar or clinch would be the ruleset they are performed under.
In wrestling you haven't got to worry about a knee or an elbow smashing you in the face or the ribs or the solar plexus. In Muay Thai you do.
The difference with the Muay Thai clinch and most other forms of clinch work is that they are drilled to exhaustion with the possibility of receiving strikes during the process. It's the drilling into the muscle memory that makes the skill available in a bad situation. It's also the constant drilling that makes one comfortable in a clinch scenario.
Becuase it's used so extensively not only in drills but in sparring there is a familiarity under pressure with the technique that I doubt most other MA's have.
As for understanding the mechanics without actually drilling it under a proper MT coach - well that's pretty much a long shot. I would tend to doubt anyone that says they can handle a clinch situation without having trained under the same rigourous circumstances that it's trained under in Muay Thai camps.
ahh but there is. The uniqueness and the effectiveness of the Muay Thai clinch come from what I've explained above. It comes as a result of the drilling it into muscle memory and the familiarity of the finer points of clinch work. Something that takes quite a long time to work out. Sure anyone can sign up for an MT class and learn basic clench technique... but to get to a point where you really have sound ability to use it to your advantage takes far longer.
I think that they probably wont chose to accept the truth but instead opt for fantasy and make believe
I think when you slander a whole group of arts, some of which are highly regarded for their effectiveness, you're bound to raise some dissent among the practitioners of those arts.
I still believe you're going to get flamed into next week. I think you're confusing competitive fighting with combat. Would most IMAists survive in a ring? Doubtful. But then again, neither would most TKDers, Karatekas, or any other art for that matter. With the exception of boxing styles (Western, Thai, etc.), which implicitly require competitive fighting, most of your martial artists would get brutalized in a competition. You can't argue that it's the art, it just show your ignorance.
Ok let me put it another way, MOST (the majority) internal martial artists can’t fight period, inside or outside of a ring.
Flame me if you want, Ive seen enough with my eyes to know what Ive said is true.
So are you saying that the majority of external martial artists can't fight either?
You are no different to 'internal' martial artists that can't fight, they don't 'get' IMA either... Unless of course thay don't wish to fight through choice.
You've got a big mouth for someone whose teacher does circus tricks like laying under the wheels of a truck. What does that have to do with fighting?
Is he testing his belly chi? ha, ha jokers & fools all over the damn place.
I think MT is a first rate fighting art and sport(I'm a fan). I also thought your first post that middleway commented on was full of correct statements, but spoken by someone with an axe to grind.
Any MA can be trained competitively and made to work under rulesets..
No I’m not saying that the majority of external martial artists can’t fight and you know that already so stop trying to twist my words.
As for my teacher, he one of the rare exceptions that can fight using internal martial arts. His training was very different to most people who call themselves internal martial artists, very hard training done the OLD way. Please remember I did not say all internal martial artists can’t fight, I said the majority.
About the picture, no he wasn’t testing his Chi, he was testing his Rlung (Tibetan internal art)
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