Defense against Muay Thai Grapple

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Steiner, Oct 28, 2005.

  1. Steiner

    Steiner New Member

    Ok, so I study Dragon BaGua and me and my mates go to a dojo and just have little sparring sessions between us and test our styles, and last night I got caught in a Muay Thai kind of grapple and couldn't do anything about it except get hit with alot of knees.. what could I do to get out of this?
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Orgone accumulator is pretty much the only thing known to work.
    Maybe some of the natives can chime in regarding it's use.
  3. zac_duncan

    zac_duncan New Member

    Definitely orgone accumulator or haduken.

    Seriously though getting clinched well is a tough situation. You see a lot of professional fighters eating knees to the face when they're in that position. It's ugly. Your best bet it to avoid the clinch as much you can.

    Stj, you practice muay thai, right? How do you guys deal with your own clinches?
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Rule number one: Never clinch with yourself. :D

    Seriously... if you expect to be able to deal with a clinch effectively you have to train them and the counters to them. Everyone loves to think they could move off the line or strike to the throat or eyes... but ya know what... there's no guarantee's that you can get any of that stuff off before the guy is on top of you.

    Once you're in the clinch... you're toast. :eek:
    And sissy clinches learned by boxercise lessons don't count. I mean a clinch where the clincher knows how move you around where he wants you and how to cranky your neck in the process.

    A clinch doesn't even need knee's to work. There are a gazillion things that can go wrong once you've let someone get the clinch.

    Take some MT and learn the basics of clinching. It's fun... but start out easy... you can do serious damage to your neck while training clenches. You'll never underestimate the beauty of a strong neck (that almost sounds erotic).

    If I told you anymore I'd have to kill you. :cool:
  5. averan

    averan New Member

    first off, if you're getting clinched, then you're just playing around. you're not really trying to take the guy out/down. you're getting caught in between ranges.

    keep to your bagua. respect the 3 ranges of fighting and their corresponding levels of intensity/commitment.

    the first thing you should do is neutralize his attacks. use careful positioning and alignment to keep him just slightly off balance.

    second, constantly change, be dangerous and almost reckless once you're inside.

    if you've been clinched, then use the connection to uproot your opponent. either step away to extend him and create an opening, or step in to uproot and overwhelm him.....especially when he lifts a knee--that's when its time for a body slam or throw.

    in a clinch, you are at the closest possible fighting range, closer even than elbow range. this is the range where you use your whole body, shoulders and hips, to fight. at this range the bagua artist will move their entire body to throw or neutralize their if they were some little crazy monkey hanging on to the head of a bear--a bear that only has to shake its mighty bulk to throw off the dangerous monkey.

    overall, i'd say stop focussing on your face and head. when you get scared, you tense up and allow him to control you by your head. maintain your whole body connection and let your energy and intentions be expansive instead of shrinking down inside yourself to hide. be "bigger" than your opponent. mostly this is mental. i'm willing to bet you have already lost your fight before you begin because you believe yourself to be smaller and weaker than your opponent.

    your muay thai guy wants to suck you in and then wail on you. if you can fix your mind on being energetically big and overwhelming, then you will bring that intention into the fight and blow up and expand every attempt to get you into a clinch.

    good luck.
  6. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    yeah it was about here i realised you dont know what you are talking about. create an opening for who? if he has you in a clinch im assuming he is the one in control. if I was in control of a clinch and the other guy decided to step backwards it would be like all my christmases had come at once.

    my advice is to go to a muay thai gym and learn how to clinch. we can tell you what you should be doing on the internet but knowing what to do and actually doing it are two different things.
  7. averan

    averan New Member

    to ikken: fight more highly skilled internal artists....then you'll learn how someone might neutralize your knees with one hand on your hip and taking a step away to stretch and open your clinch just enough to escape or counterattack. there's many ways for an internal stylist to deal with a clinch.

    tim cartmell is well known for his gao style bagua, and he teaches how to use it against and with jiujitsu style grappling....which he is also well known for.

    your thai boxing relies on the opponent not wanting to get so close to you, of being afraid of your clinch. an internal guy will let you bring yourself right in and just swallow you up and spit you out.

    of course all of this silly banter relies heavily on equal levels of skill, just discussing where the strengths and weaknesses of 2 different approaches meet.

    i would certainly agree to take any advice to the mat and experiment to find what works. definitely study the clinch and its counters and how you might use your internal skills to effect a counter or neutralization. but don't get sucked into playing their game by their rules! that's when you've given in and have let them determine the outcome.

    essentially, know your enemy, but don't kickbox a kickboxer! force them to conform to your rules of engagement and use your strengths to exaggerate their weakness.
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2005
  8. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    A guy in our class goes to Muay Thai classes sometimes for a fight (not turning up like John Wayne mind, he knows folks there and gets in the ring with them).

    A good one he told us is when in a clinch grab their neck too, and whetever side they are going to knee you in, lean into it, and since you have them round the neck and they have brought up that leg they can do hee haw about it. Closes the hips right off. A guy who goes to our class who also does Muay Thai came back the following week saying it worked and the other guy got well ****ed off with him.

    Everyones different though, and the two guys I mentioned, myself also, are big and heavy. May or may not work if you are light, I dunno.
  9. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    thanks, or i could fight international level kickboxers and see what THEY do. hmm this is a tricky decision- someone who doesnt train muay thai, or an expert in it. who would I want to learn from when it comes to the clinch. HMMMMM.

    Now if YOU are the one in control of the clinch- you have your arms on the inside and have control of the head- pulling backwards to give yourself more room to work with can be a good idea. if someone has control of YOU, which is what I assumed the first guy was talking about, it isnt.

    whats his lumpinee record? I havent heard of him.

    you heard it here first- the MT clinch is a FEAR based technique. every time i get into the clinch I crap my pants. needless to say I have to have a lot of spare pairs of trousers in my bag when I go to class. The MT clinch relies on ability. generally you are using it against people who KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING, so they are hardly going to be afraid of it. getting close in the clinch is one of many strategies. in fact getting close and under, then driving my head up under their chin to crank their head back is something I use quite often as a smaller guy. how much closer would you like me to get ;)

    yeah, hey it worked for the american kickboxers when they went to thailand. oh wait.

    now this bit, i can agree with. i think the best way to do this would be to learn some groundwork.
  10. faster than you

    faster than you Valued Member

    what if he does the same thing? do both of you just stand there looking at each other?
  11. averan

    averan New Member

    fty: yeah, and smile too, you might just make a new friend.

    ikken: have you ever fought an internal stylist? do you have any familiarity with any internal styles? if you had, you probably would know something about Tim Cartmell and his school. you have been giving a bagua artist advice on how to act as an external thai boxer. if that is what he is looking for, great. but i'll bet he's not looking to learn kickboxing, just how to use his bagua to defend against it.

    brido: you're thinking along the same lines as me, to use his tendencies against him. as a bagua man myself, i'm not gonna try to out-kickbox a trained kickboxer. if i get caught lolly gaggin around and clinched i'm gonna get out of it as soon as possible. and if he wants to bring me in and raise a knee, then i'm gonna position myself to take the power out of the blow and also slam the guy down while his leg is lifted.

    "generally you are using it against people who KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING, so they are hardly going to be afraid of it"

    this shows that you are only thinking mt vs mt. steiner practices bagua. its probably a bit scary for him since he doesn't train being in a clinch regularly. therefore, he must deal with the fear of it first. and also, you mt guys train to respond in a distinctly mt way....your goals and means are different than a bagua fighter. so while it will be helpful to know what the mt guy will tend to do, i don't think its good advice for the internal artist to use strictly mt counters to a clinch.
  12. faster than you

    faster than you Valued Member

    those tactics will not work if MT champ has snapped your head down and if you are bent at the waist at about a 45 degree angle or lower. the distance created from the snap down will not allow any above the waist throws or slams; though shooting in for a double leg might work.
    also if MT champ is shaking and dragging you from the neck-tie then rooting and aligning will not be easily done.
    averan, i honestly doubt you have ever tried your defenses against a skilled MT fighter.
  13. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    what i actually meant by that was fear has nothing to do with a MT clinch. sorry if i didnt make that overwhelmingly clear enough. sure if someone is "scared" to clinch, thats a bonus. but it has nothing to do with clinching strategies. I dont even know where you got the idea from. you still havent explained WHY I would care who Tim Cartmell is. what exactly did he do? like I said, whats his record?

    wow, i had never thought of that. with this newfound knowledge of body positioning and throwing, i will decimate any other MT fighter. because, none of them have even thought of that. Ill get hugely rich from this secret you have shared with me, thank you so much!

    why not? is there something that stops a bagua man from using tried and tested clinching methods? the thais have been and honing their skill in this area for hundreds if not thousands of years. generally, they have gotten pretty decent at it. if you want to learn how to fight against a thai clinch, you HAVE to learn how to use it first. I would have imagined this was fairly obvious- if i want to learn how to counter judo throws, i learn judo. if i want to learn how NOT to get put into an ankle lock i learn sambo
  14. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    I'm afraid I have to agree with Ikken on the majority of his points, and unlike Ikken I have trained in a small amount of IMA.

    Whilst not as skilled a MT guy as Ikken (I only trained in MT for about 6 months a few years ago) most of my clinchwork comes from wrestling/MMA. As far as fear goes, the majority of IMA guys I've 'played' with have crapped themselves when I've clinched with them, but this is because they don't know what I was up to.

    Averan: I have trained and fought with IMA guys and I don't know who Tim Cartmell is, care to share?

    Ikken: Remember the IMA guys should have there own tactics for dealing with the clinch, as if they are training as a functional martial art, they will be able to deal with all ranges.
  15. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Having spent plenty of time in the clinch with MT guys and in competition I feel comfortable enough.... but I still have to say I find clinching with wrestlers to be problematic. Just when you think you're gettin' somewhere they sneak a wrasslin' move in and now then I'm stuck trying to pull guard. :cry:

    Last week I couldn't pull guard and got mounted. Terrifying. :D
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2005
  16. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    A quick google search on Mr Cartmell revealed this info:

    He's definitely known within some BaGua circles within the states, although averan seems to have overemphasized his noteriety.

    What's important to note is not only Mr Cartmell an excellent IMA practioner, but he's also a certified Black Belt in BJJ ( Now as to whether his defenses against the cinch will easily be able to be identified as IMA vs BJJ... again, we're getting into ideology here. Start with defenese that work and then optimize for your system/stle of practice.

    - Matt
  17. Ad McG

    Ad McG Troll-killer Supporter

    I personally would find it incredibly hard to believe that he didn't use BJJ in his groundwork and grappling if that is what anyone is suggesting. Getting a black belt in BJJ is incredibly difficult and develops instincts to a very high degree. Would he fall back on Bagua for defense when he already has the skills in a proven efficient system? I doubt it, especially if averans responses are anything to go by. Methinks you need to have a go at a few more clinches and see how your tactics work! :)
  18. averan

    averan New Member

    good points made by all. ikken, you're wonderfully sarcastic, thank you.

    "why not? is there something that stops a bagua man from using tried and tested clinching methods?"
    --no, especially if he's really a mixed martial arts guy disguised as a bagua guy.

    instead of trying to learn kickboxing so that i can counter a clinch, i think i'd make a point of learning what my own art does to avoid and prevent a clinch in the first place.

    "what i actually meant by that was fear has nothing to do with a MT clinch. sorry if i didnt make that overwhelmingly clear enough. sure if someone is "scared" to clinch, thats a bonus. but it has nothing to do with clinching strategies."
    --never said it did. sorry if i didn't make it overwhelmingly clear, for someone who has little to no experience getting clinched, fear is an immobilizing factor that must first be overcome.

    i only mention tim cartmell because he ties together bagua and jiujitsu, and having trained a little with him, i learned about how bagua responds to clinchs and holds. visit his website: i don't know his record, you might be able to find out from some of the guys on his discussion board: he's known for his fighting and his writing and book translations.

    "averan, i honestly doubt you have ever tried your defenses against a skilled MT fighter."
    --true, but i have fought against huge skilled jiujitsu and mma guys who i've let put me into a clinch, and the same tactics work with them. on the contrary, i doubt any of you have ever fought a skilled IMA fighter.

    as for tim cartmell's notoriety, i guess i was just assuming that if you studied IMA, you would be very well read and would have at least studied or heard of one of the books he helped put out. sorry.

    back to my main point...if you want to use mma to fight, fine. if you want to use your own art to defend against another style, then, by all means, study that styles weaknesses and strengths, including how they apply and counter a clinch. but then i'd recommend returning to your own style and developing an effective method to counter or prevent and neutralize a clinch. i seriously doubt any of you hardcore mt guys are gonna go learn taichi so you can use it against a taichi fighter! stick to your guns and learn from the other style where your own style hurts them most.

    had to include this edit:
    was reading over mr. cartmell's site...seems the central issue is that no one's style covers the full spectrum of fighting ranges and situations. and if you want to be the best all-around fighter, then you've discovered the short-comings of your own style and are training in other arts to round out your studies.

    makes sense, right? but it also seems that before studying everything out there to become a jack of all arts, but master of none, it would seem smart to really master the basics of your own be able to use them effectively. and that you should choose the style that best fits your body and attitude. train what you've got.

    along that line of thought, it seems quite irrational to believe that a person could train in enough different arts to master them all to such a high level that they will never ever lose a fight to anyone. which leads me clear out of this thread with the final thought, what's the point in spending so much time learning to fight and worrying about getting beat up? do you have so much to prove? do you have so many enemies looking to hurt you? are you a body guard for caravans transporting gold?

    thanks to all for their honest and sincere replies. it has given me much food for thought. i've exhausted all that i can contribute to the original post.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2005
  19. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    where the hell did MMA come from in this discussion? I dont train it, the original poster was talking about a MUAY THAI clinch NOT clinching in MMA which are two different things. I couldnt care less if Tim Cartwell was a 10th degree black belt in ju-asswhooping-jitsu because that (or at least, I thought) isnt what we were talking about.
  20. MartialArtN00b

    MartialArtN00b New Member

    What exactly did you try?

    Did you try to lean into him? Did you try to throw him? Did you try to try to use you hip to hit him? Or use your shoulder to push him away?Did you try to wrap your leg with his? Did you try to execute an escape technique whatsoever?

    I mean its not like theres a magic technique to solve this situation. Youve just gotta try something.

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