A boxer's hook punch is very difficult to defend against in Wing Chun or Kung fu. There are many techniques to defend against it, yet many Wing Chun practioners even in Hong Kong in Beimo fights still get caught by it? Comments?
Why would a wing chun or kung fu practitioner have any more trouble against a boxer's hook or any other technique? I don't think that any martial artist is trained not to avoid or not to block a hook. Your comment puzzles me. Is it that you have not studied kung fu for very long? Maybe you missed the hook defense class?
Last I checked, boxers and fighters in other styles were still getting caught by hook punches, too. I also don't think it's hard to defend against at all. Actually, I much prefer defending against hooks to defending against straighter attacks. There are a lot of opportunities for simultaneous attack and defense with one, among other things. Do you practice WC? have you tried asking your Sifu how to defend against one?
The answer to this is YES. I have and am still studing two arts both for too long and yet still too short. One is Wing Chun the other is Sil Lum Hoong Kuen. However, the Hook punch which is difficult to avoid and often catches many students are due to: 1) The over emphasis in maintaining a linear centre action 2) The lack of closing in the gap fast enough The one which is difficult to avoid at real speed is one that starts off as a straight punch, then at the last minute deviates and hooks in. This is not the "gwai kuen" which is also sometimes also regarded as a hook punch but a very subtle and some consider dirty boxing technique. However, this in Chinese (Cantonese) my sifu and I refer to as "jong kuen". Try it and find out. Perhaps you have never encountered this in training or in real life. Have a student start off with a straight usual Wing chun punch at real speed or a jab then at the last minute deviate to a hook before contact with a snap of the wrist.
I think the hook is the most MA of boxing techniques but a good guard should hold it off. If you have to respond at all, intercept it either on the outside of the wrist/forearm or inside on the bicep. If you're close enough for a hook, you might be better hitting with the elbow. Unless you're McSonshu, of course, because elbows aren't for the street and he knows all the reasons why the boxer has already won in this situation. So your question is stupid and so is all kung fu. Especially mine, which is from a McDojo and I'm a fool because my 360+ year old system is based on the joke of dim mak methods. Rgds, David
The range for hooks and elbows can differ drastically. As can the set up that is neccessary to successfully land an elbow. The end result of varies by quite a bit... few manage to ever land an elbow cleanly.. let alone knock someone out with it... elbows are more often used just as a cut opener that then is worked by fists... towards the end of getting a TKO due to bleeding. It's a very surgical weapon in the fighters arsenal. Obviously in a street confrontation it's a different focus from the ring. Unless someone has access to a trainer who has regularly thrown elbows under an andrenalin stress response - I doub't the technique that's being taught is really of much use. Everything works good in theory... elbows are a lot harder to set up and land in a real fight. Muay Thai trainers for the most part are the only ones that seem to have spent much time pressure testing their elbow techniques. lol.. Nothing like taking a cheap shot at someone who is not even on the thread. Wow. Best hit and run post I've seen in a while. As for dealing with a boxers hook... you can go about it many ways... 1) change up your range - closer up or further away 2) level change - break at the knees 3) duck 'em - break at the waist 4) cover up and keep your chin tucked down behind your shoulder 5) learn the basics of boxing defense And yes.. many people like to say they could deal with a boxers hook... but most are just flapping their gums... unless they've stepped into the ring and actually gone a few rounds with someone who knows how to throw a proper boxers hook... they're making stuff up that is pure fantasy.
Be aware..... be very aware. If everything wasn't difficult....well.... It depends very much on who is throwing the hook and who is defending it! Speed and awareness are major attributes in any martial art and there are many techniques to nullify a hook punch attack within Chinese martial arts. It is almost impossible to defend any punch when caught off guard, the real skill is being able to detect the intent of an attacker as early as possible in a self defence situation. 2 ways i could suggest.... 1. Take the shot, then go thro' him like a bolt of lightning. 2. Anticipate the shot, going thro' him like a bolt of lightniing. It is inevitable that one shot will get thro' once, whether this be in training/ sparring or indeed in a real situation , no matter what art you practise. Knowing you can take a good shot is as important as knowing you can dish one out. When someone attacks you and then realises his techniques are having no effect.... then the hunter becomes the hunted :Alien:
Hmm, if you intercept the wrist on the outside does this not leave the elbow free to attack? Conversely, if you intercept the bicep on the inside does this not leave the elbow free to swing the forearm? In terms of mechanics I would do it the other way round. Or maybe were both thinking of different applications.
Slip's got a point. Many CMAers don't learn to defend against a hook punch properly. Period. Why? Because most CMA schools don't work them enough. A lot of this is nice theory, but how many of you regularly work hooks, uppercuts and what not in sparring and not just drills?
whoa there horsey.. Yo David, did Sonshu doubt the mighty power of the elbows? I'm with you mate, elbows are are by far and away the most devastating (bodypart) street weapon there is barring perhaps the only headbutt (IMHO, obviously) extremely hard, connected to your frame by one solid bone, and ultra fast and powerful when thrown from inside their guard. this may not be at hook range, but i wanna be inside (his) hook range anyway and pounding his ribs and face with my elbows. perhaps sonshu just doesnt know how to do it right? as for hooks i think the reason TMA ers get caught with them is that a lot feel the need to be trying to block the jabs and crosses that generally come before a hook, and just get overwhelmed by the combo, and hit with the finisher exactly as hoped for by the puncher.
The only kung-fu style I ever learn is Pak Mei and we dont seem to have much trouble (well as much as one can) from boxers hooks...dont care how good your technique, you gonna get hit eventually. Like BKG says tho, in my class we drill everything. Evasion, counter-attacking, blocking...and this is with quite a bit of intent. The attacker wears 10oz boxing gloves and swings away. (almost KOd one classmate but as I said...it'll happen eventually)
Yep. Hook punches are a problem. For a couple reasons: 1. they tend to come from outside your normal field of vision and 2. thrown properly they're a short range weapon and the body mechanics them quite dificult to stop. It seems the style I do, Lung Ying, is one of the few CMA's that traditionally uses the close range hook (kao jung) and the upper cut (chung choi). Fortunetly for myself, it means we have to counter them both regularly too. If you're going to counter a good snappy short range hook you really only have a few options. Slipping just outside the range of the hook and quickly trapping it against your opponent's body is one of the best, but this requires both awareness of the blow and good timing. This counter tends to happen after you've already been caught with a hook once and recognize how your opponent sets it up. Another option is to fold your arm up at the elbow and raise it to the level of your ear to absorb the blow. This tends to be more common as an instinctual response and is actually fairly easy to pull off. The hook can just about knock you cold if it catches you on the temple or jaw, but won't be worth much at all if it just hits your bicept/forearm. Again, this must be followed up imidiately as you are now on your oponents inside with good access to his centerline. If you're quick enough and have drilled it alot there are also some intersting shoulder locking chin na that can be accomplished from this position. There are some other good methods aren't really traditional to my style, and have been mentioned before which is duck the blow (again requires awareness of it, and good timeing) and counter. I personally don't care so much for trying to slip inside a good hook as it's a short range blow and there doesn't tend to be room to get much closer. On the other hand, if he's a "lazy hooker" and throws the wide louping hooks with his arm mostly extended, moving inside is a great thing to do. The key to dealing with a good hooker is couter, counter, coutner! Punish him everytime you stop that hook, thusly taking away one of his very powerful weapons.
In Choi Lee Fut, you learn from day one not only how to use uppercuts and hooks(very popular techniques in the style) but how to defend against them.
Wow, are you serious, man? A hook punch?! First off, there ARE hook punches within Wu Kung...unless you're practicing WC or are just out of touch with reality within combat altogether. Secondly, just lift up your forearm---there, you've blocked it. Now what are you gonna do with this success opportunity? No seriously, all jokes aside, hook punching is probably one of the most basic things to look out for. Far from being that much trouble in general. I've notice most WC'ers get caught by this because their training methods are quite unrealistic (straight line everything, pow, pow, pow, flurry, flurry,flurry). For the most part, that is. *Damn, man. The more I hear about stuff like this, the more that I understand where Jun Fan was coming from. Jeez*
Come on guys. A serious question and request for advice was posted, it isn't fair of us to beat the poster up for using this forum for what it was intended for. I don't mean to sound like the playground cop but please either post something constructive or don't post. Good hook punches ARE hard to deal with. That's why the hook is a tool in every great boxer's arsenal. If you think otherwise go to your local boxing gym and go three rounds. They'll be happy to prove to you otherwise. If someone is having trouble dealing with them and comes here for advice give it if you've got it. Don't berate him or his training or style because at the current point in his martial development he's having problems with something.
have to agree sliver, the hook is the most common knock out punch by far and is definitely harder to deal with than straight punches because its deceptive. the hook is designed to come around the guard after a couple of straight punches. if you really want to learn the intricasies of the hook, i suggest you do a couple of boxing lessons.
Firstly, it is interesting to see everyone's feedback on this topic. And yes with Wing Chun since it evolves around straight line motion, some WC people get caught be this. But a GOOD hook is difficult to block, which is okay in theory to say but try it in practice. In training we try to make it as real as possible by regular sparring, and I notice that 95% of students are caught off when they are hooked. Of course there exists several counters for the hook, but we have to take in mind that some of these counters especially in some CMA styles which are slower and ofter leave the practioner open to a flurry of other combinations or dont block the hook at all or leave you even more open. IN ESSENCE: Do not underestimate the hook, it is responsible for a lot of knock outs in boxing. Thus, the goal with martial arts and KUNG FU (which in Chinese means hard work) is to spend a lifetime practice and explore all the flaws and weaknesses in the art. The defense against the hook is one of them. Thus if a technique / block only works 50% of the time, in the street it is the 50% of the time it does not work that kills you. Or if it works only for a tall guy then obviously there is a flaw with the execution not the art and most be modified.
WC has hook punches. WC is concept based, not fixed by rules or laws, it isn't practical or sensible to think "only a straight punch can be used; I must keep my horse stance no matter what; always keep the elbow fixed". If a hook punch is the most practical in a given situation, then you'd do well to use the hook. Problem with a hook punch is that if someone knows how to parry/intercept it, then you are left quite open to attack. The hook is so often used in boxing because they use gloves to protect their heads, and thus the boxer must go around these gloves to hit the head. I hope you were joking about lifting the forearm? As with any attack, you should parry and strike simultaneously, it is too slow to "block" a punch and then attack. If someone is getting nailed by a hook then it is because they have failed to keep in mind when training that all manner of possibilities are available in the real world
