defeating the ego.....a rant

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by royalrd, Dec 13, 2009.

  1. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    There are 3 reasons to train MA: There are for

    - health,
    - fun,
    - combat.

    Why do you still want to train hard when you are 80 years old? For health? You don't need MA. For fun? There are others thing that may give you more fun. The only reason left is for "combat". What's the usage for your "combat" ability when you are 80 years old? You try very hard not to let a 20 years old to beat you up when you are 80. Is that ego? Of course it is. Is it bad? I don't think so.

    If you can utilize your ego to give you the motiviation that you need for your MA traing, you have just converted ego to something positive.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2009
  2. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Not wanting to get roughed up by 20-year-olds is only ego in the broadest, most metaphysical sense. Most people would just call it self-preservational instinct.

    Besides, I knew an 80-year-old who took up Filipino martial arts strictly for fun. I'm sure she wasn't the only one either.


    Stuart
     
  3. US Martial

    US Martial New Member

    Hi, I have only just come across this post. I would like to take it back to the OP's first post. I had originally intended to add to it by giving my personal experiences with this particular group in detail, but this became too convoluted.

    Instead, I will just list the issues I had with and wait for the flood of derision:

    I "studied" silat with this group for a long period of time some years back, and have decided to say the following because I am no longer in the same country as them, and they can't get to me.

    The study began with meeting that particular teacher outside of a martial arts context. He invited me to train with him, and I gladly accepted, knowing from previous experience, how good Silat is.

    This group turned out to be more of a cult than a martial arts class/group. Students were regular subjected to over the top berating for the smallest things, like work keeping them from attending the class, or wishing to see family members on the day a class was on.

    The classes were moved from a rented hall, to student's houses, training in completely inappropriate spaces, yet we were still required to pay for the rental of the hall. Once the classes moved from the hall, the mood in the classes became darker, with constant negative remarks about religions other than Islam (many of the students hadn't converted), and also the comments about converting to the "true religion." I should say at this point that I had studied Silat before (under a Muslim Malay), and had not had to deal with this. The classes also went from 2 hours to 8 on a week night, and 12 on a weekend. Not sure if any of you have trained for that long before, but I can tell you after 2.5hours at that pace, you stop learning. And so the remaining hours are a complete waste.

    I told the teacher that I had my own set of beliefs, and while I respected his, I did not want to convert. Despite that, week in, week out it was the same treatment. Over the time I was with the group, many students left, and each one was ostracised, abused, and threatened, with the teacher telling other students to call and berate the leaver, then threaten to beat them up.

    Without dragging on too much more, I and another guy left within a few weeks of one another and I was given the "let down" guilt trip, and he was given the abuse and threat of physical violence.

    My point? 2 things:

    1. To let you know that there are self-centred, egotistical teachers out there who do not treat students well

    2. Don't be bullied (physically or mentally) by a teacher. You pay them to teach you, and you should be able to miss a class, prioritise something else before training, or even walk away without feeling guilt or intimidation.

    Again, sorry it's long, but it needed to be said.
     
  4. Dudelove

    Dudelove Valued Member

    I’m sorry that you went through a similar experience to me, but thanks for sharing your experience so that others may learn.

    My experience was very similar to yours, transcending the ego was basically being subservient to his desires which he claimed or alluded were from ‘god’ or ‘guru’. Only if we were willing to give up our job and time with families for Silat, accepted bullying, and accepted his behaviour as a result of 'higher knowledge' and not judge it to be narcissism or unethical - did we prove we had ‘transcended our ego’.

    This thread was something that was close to my heart too, I agree with the OP’s sentiments - even if he did generalize in his use of language. It’s good that you at least didn’t seem too taken in by it all, I however became a ’true believer’ but left after I uncovered a cluster of lies and unethical behaviour that woke me up from my hero worship.
     
  5. Dudelove

    Dudelove Valued Member

    My personal experience was with a international benign cult (with some destructive tendencies) that taught chi kung and internal martial arts (IMA), and with a small destructive cult that taught Silat.

    Some warning signs for anyone venturing into the world of internal martial arts/silat, so they can avoid [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E"]cults[/ame];

    1) Narcissistic personality traits

    The people who are leaders in martial arts cults will possess those traits,

    2) Transcendental goals

    The IMA cult was dedicated to ‘restoring glory’ to their particular lineage of Chi Kung and IMA’s, the Silat cult was dedicated to ’uplifting consciousness’ via Silat and their particular religious beliefs (a hybrid of Hinduism and Islam).

    3) Promises of near-invincibility or super humanism

    They may explicitly promise you the traits of super humanism or implicitly by discussing ‘generating enough internal force to rupture internal organs with light taps’ (IMA) or ‘God sending angels to fight alongside you, and hitting people on your behalf’ (Silat). They may also demonstrate ’no-touch KO’s’ (Silat), an unbendable arm (IMA) or invulnerability to strikes (IMA and Silat), and trance state where you perform martial arts (IMA and Silat). (They normally can be explained with a knowledge of [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gUHajQUQfk&feature=related"]general martial arts trickery[/ame], biomechanics, and psychological manipulation).

    4) Deriding critics, former members, or current members who are questioning the ’teachings’.

    Former members to ‘outsiders’ are described as a ‘disappointment’, or ‘possessing character flaws that prevent them from seeing things clearly’ but they ‘wish them well’. To the ’insiders’ they are demonized and presented as an example of ‘how difficult it is to stay on this path’ (Silat) ‘following their ego and turning their back on God’ (Silat), ’not possessing mental clarity’ (IMA) or ’not appreciating the opportunity they have been given’ (IMA).

    Critics are subjected to various psychological games from the ’spiritual folk’.

    Members who are questioning the ‘teachings’ or ethical behaviour of the group are at first subjected to gentle persuasion techniques that show empathy for their confusion but alludes to them needing to trust the teacher. If the person persists in questioning then psychological games are employed to attempt to invoke guilt and a negative self-image so they will self-censor(IMA and Silat).

    5) ‘The end justifies the means’

    They may claim they are trying to help questioners ‘gain mental clarity‘, however publicly humiliating someone by questioning their ethical, psychological and spiritual character in a public setting generally isn’t a noble means for such a noble goal (IMA).

    Ditto presenting one set of beliefs or intentions to ‘outsiders’ and other contradictory ones to ‘insiders’ isn’t a noble means for gaining rapport or ‘managing perceptions’ (Silat).

    No one has the right to bully or demean others, it doesn’t matter if they are given the title ’sifu’(IMA) or assert that they are on a ‘secret mission to unite religions, and create warriors for God’ (Silat) that isn’t license to threaten to kill people for ‘dissin your art’ (IMA), or take drugs and twist religion so that it complies with a narcissistic lifestyle(Silat).

    Disclaimer; Not all Silat or IMA schools are cults, but it is a very real danger.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2010
  6. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    Great crow. Good thing you folks got away from those schools!
     
  7. US Martial

    US Martial New Member

    Thanks for the additional posts.

    I can also say that it is not every Silat or IMA school/teacher are cult-like. I have studied Silat with more than one teacher, and had none of the issues I listed.

    I can confirm that I experienced every one of those points raised by Dudelove. The "teacher" claimed that any disagreement with his statements was as a result of me not understanding because I wasn't a "true believer", that I didn't understand religion, or that I hadn't had the experience to comment. I don't consider myself to be ignorant, and certainly have read my fair share on religious, martial arts, and spiritual practices...and I am not a child.

    The one point that struck a major note with me was:

    "4) Deriding critics, former members, or current members who are questioning the ’teachings’.

    Former members to ‘outsiders’ are described as a ‘disappointment’, or ‘possessing character flaws that prevent them from seeing things clearly’ but they ‘wish them well’. To the ’insiders’ they are demonized and presented as an example of ‘how difficult it is to stay on this path’ (Silat) ‘following their ego and turning their back on God’ (Silat), ’not possessing mental clarity’ (IMA) or ’not appreciating the opportunity they have been given’ (IMA).

    Critics are subjected to various psychological games from the ’spiritual folk’.

    Members who are questioning the ‘teachings’ or ethical behaviour of the group are at first subjected to gentle persuasion techniques that show empathy for their confusion but alludes to them needing to trust the teacher. If the person persists in questioning then psychological games are employed to attempt to invoke guilt and a negative self-image so they will self-censor(IMA and Silat)."

    I experienced this on both sides, listening to the demonisation of leavers/doubters, and then being demonised myself, when I mustered the courage to leave.

    Thanks again, it's good to know that I am not the only one to have experience these issues.
     
  8. Dudelove

    Dudelove Valued Member

    I just checked my email and it came to my attention that Myself and US Martial recieved a threatening message in this thread on the 18th of Feb from a member called k-force(a student of the instructor in the video).

    I was wondering if the mods deleted it?
     
  9. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Yep and the user was banned. Making threats to members in your first post isn't a great way to endear yourself to the forum.
     
  10. Dudelove

    Dudelove Valued Member

    :cool:, I appreciate that. Glad this forum doesn't tolerate attempts at bullying.

    Ironically, it was an example of what myself and US martial were drawing attention to. :bow1:
     
  11. US Martial

    US Martial New Member

    Hi,

    I just noted that too, as I haven't checked my email. I haven't seen the message, but would like to know what it said if anyone can tell me please?

    The poster is a member of that group/school/cult.

    I also thank you for not tolerating intimmidating behaviour towards other members. It's so easy for these people to threaten and bully, but not so easy for them to logically discuss/argue their points. It's a poor state of affairs when people of their level have lost that ability, when it is so inherent in the philosophies of their art.
     
  12. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I actually replied to the guy (kforce) but then deleted it as he was removed. He basically said something like he was dissatisfied with your(?) comments after all you have been through together, and that he was coming for you. Sounded pretty ridiculous eitherway.
     
  13. US Martial

    US Martial New Member

    Ah I see. Well without wanting to exacerbate the situation, he's going to have a long way to travel, seeing as I don't live in the same country anymore.

    Besides, all I did was tell the truth about my experiences. I stuck my neck out, and look what happened, Dudelove saw the posting and felt he needed to express his similar experiences too. Now, I don't know Dudelove, so that really says something about kforce, or whoever it was posting.
     
  14. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Yeah, its pretty dumb and does demonstrate the calibre of the people there, or at least this one person. But as I understand, if it was really kforce (and not some troll playing games) and he is one of their top students, well, it puts the whole organization in to disrepute.

    Its strange though, one of my old teachers speaks highly of the head of this org, I really would not have expected such childish behaviour. I have met one other of their students before, a chap named Marcus, he was pretty cool.

    So anything to say about the actual martial aspects of what they teach, Marshal/Dude? Good, bad, etc..
     
  15. US Martial

    US Martial New Member

    I have now seen the offending post, and know who it was from, or worded on behalf of. It's a problem with these particular guys who feel that because they are under the radar, they can get away with threatening behaviour. Nobody responds well to threatening behaviour, and being told I would be paid a visit will not deter me from sharing my experiences.

    My original posting was meant to highlight the fact that there are some "teachers" out there who use their position for personal gain, manipulating their students with bullying tactics. Kforce, or this "teacher" posing as kforce has proven my point. My intention is to warn others to be careful of who they study with, and let them know it is ok to question what you are being taught, and the motivation behind this teaching.

    I know a number of instructors who speak highly of this "teacher", but most of this is from what they have heard by word of mouth. Only one or two have been to his lessons, and I can tell you that his demeanour changes on these occassions.

    I don't dispute for a second that the "teacher" has martial skills, and for me to say otherwise would raise many questions about who the hell I think I am.

    To say whether a style has martial merit or not, I would need to be objective, and I think we can all agree I wouldn't be on this subject :)

    I think Silat as a style has phenomenal aspects to it, and it is a very interesting style to study.
     
  16. US Martial

    US Martial New Member

    Sorry to inthespirit, I got carried away. I know you didn't ask about Silat as a whole, but that is all I am happy to comment on at this time.
     
  17. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Its all good man, thanks for the reply!
     
  18. rivend

    rivend Valued Member

    Im hopeing to jump in here peacefully. I tend to agree with Blade96 on this reply. But also i think the op means ego in a different way. Meaning that if someone want you to lose yours and totally be receptive to there thoughts or there ways. At tmes ive even seen egomaniacs that would listen to you. But then of course there opinion was right in there minds. Having a huge ego may also help in a battle as fear of the other person may be present.But this definition of ego is your knowledge of your skills and training, conditioning etc. Which the word ego would take on a new meaning which is your inner strength.
     
  19. Dudelove

    Dudelove Valued Member

    Marcus is flattered.:whistle:

    Yep I find it strange that his colleagues and friends can't see through him, and continue to trust and endorse him even though he has traumatized and deceived many people using his school, and ex students have told them about their experiences. Although recently some Silat teachers in Malaysia have seen through the school, and warn people about it.

    Regarding the martial arts ability... the Djurus made the body strong and were an excellent form of calisthenics. Friends commented me how strong I had become when we 'messed around'.

    However in terms of fighting ability I had gained nothing. Most of the teaching involved unrealistic drills like the 2 man forms found in some Karate Dojos. Back and forth arm parrying drills with no realistic timing or motion.

    I remember after a yr and a half learning being non the wiser how the movements could be applied against someone who wasn't a student of the art. We could never seem to pull off what we were taught in the drills apart from the basic things that are common effective techniques within all the arts (foot sweeps, etc).

    The sparring consisted of 'pretend' strikes, we never put on gloves or gave each other contact. Effectiveness was judged by imagination not actual results. To be blunt someone with 1yr boxing training and natural 'toughness' would have wiped the floor with his senior students IMO.

    Like many TMAs in my very humble experience, it provided excellent calisthenics, but little in the way of realistic drills that enhance fighting ability.

    A Silat guru in Malaysia openly told me to use the Djurus for strengthening (which they undoubtedly did) and to learn a tactical model for fighting, but to 'fight like a Thai boxer' in order to use it realistically.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2010
  20. Dudelove

    Dudelove Valued Member

    I think your spot on there, pity the OP still isn't posting. It'd be interesting to read about his experiences too.
     

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