De-programming

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Jamie Thomson, Mar 31, 2004.

  1. Firstly, I don’t want to incite the usual ranting about Karate being ineffective in combat compared to other MA’s so please don’t loose focus peeps … same applies for differing styles as I understand some styles will profess combat effectiveness from the start and so be it, you’re probably right. :p



    Onwards...

    I used to be a little hoodlum in my pre-teen years and often found myself in some form of fight or other and I was actually quite good at ‘scrapping’ …


    I started Karate (Shotokan) when I was 12 (mainly because a couple of my closer friends trained) during which time I began to calm down somewhat, whether it be environmental (change of school and such likes) or the Karate training – a bit of both I feel. Never-the-less I felt that during my lower to mid ‘Kyu grades’ I was somewhat less effective in combat (albeit ‘kiddie fighting’). This being the case, I decided that it was Karate training which caused this ’diminished ability’.



    From this experience, I’ve come round to the thought that the very way in which some Karate is taught (Shotokan certainly), de-programs the carnal fighting instincts and abilities of students (this I acknowledge as part of the course). It cannot be said that Karate has ruined my ability in combat altogether (Re. not wanting the afore-mentioned rants) as I am happy that my training has proved itself as an effective form, from about 4th Kyu and above. This is something I’m quite conscious of when teaching and to that end, I like to integrate some Jui-Jitsu, Aikido and even some kick-boxing (shock, horror) to keep a level of capable-ness in my older students throughout their training.



    As Karateka (advanced, intermediate, novice, whatever...) have you ever felt or come across this train of thought in your own mind or in that of others?




    As an instructor are you aware of this as a ‘real issue’ and do you attempt to make up for it for older students or do you just continue unhindered, effectively ignoring combat effectiveness of lower grades?



    As a novice/intermediate, do think your instructor should be aware of this and integrate extra self-defence methodology?



    … or am I talking garbage? :D



    DISCUSS



    I would like to point out that I don’t see Karate as purely a combative art, but that is the focus I like to attain in this post.


    Cheers Peeps



    Jamie
     
  2. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Hi Jamie

    Absolutely!

    Combat effectiveness is always uppermost in my mind when looking at the way I do Karate. But, as I was hinting at yesterday, I believe that Karate was dramatically modified in the early 20th century, making it somewhat less combat effective than it previously had been.

    In my youth I worked as a bouncer for a few years. I learnt what real combat can be like and as a result the shortcomings of standard Karate training were brought sharply into focus for me (although I was only a mid/high kyu grade at the time). I didn't train at all for a long time after that.

    When I started training again I strove to do so from a practical point of view, replacing ritualism with realism. Nowadays I'm much happier with my training methods, although I'm always seeking to find new ways to improve them. I'm happy to take inspiration from other arts, other Karate teachers, wherever it comes from really as long I can make sense of it in the light of my own experiences. I've dumped many of the techniques and training methods of 20th century Karate and adopted some others instead. Fortunately for me I'm a member of a small organisation which doesn't try to force me to teach students a certain way or adhere to any rigid dogma. At the heart of the way I teach and train though is kata. In fact I still adhere to the three K's - Kihon, Kata and Kumite - but the way we do each is significantly different to what you may be used to.

    If you want to discuss any of this at further feel free to email me privately.

    Mike
     
  3. hwardo

    hwardo Drunken Monkey

    I think that you are absolutely right to call it "de-programming." I have noticed that whenever I begin a new style of martial art that challenges me in a way I'm not used to, there is a period where my body is not good at anything in either the new art, or my core art. It's strange. I have come to think of it as re-assimilation, like when you do a really strenuous resistance workout, and you are willingly useless for a couple of days afterwards, because you understand that you will be better off once that period is over.
     
  4. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    Interesting..........

    I have always thought that free-sparring against a complete beginner is really difficult. Its very hard to get clean shots on them. Once they've been training for a few months though, they are like lambs to the slaughter!!

    BUT my view is that - when learning any fighting style you go through this process when you are well, a bit crap and slow - as the mind is trying to over-ride instinct in order to execute techniques you are still mastering. After 2+ years regular training the techniques starts to become more "instinctive" and therefore effective IMO. Something I've heard mention is "muscle memory" which is conditioned by repetition of techniques which may have something to do with it.
     
  5. 'realism vs ritualism' ...

    Mike,
    I like to think I get a happy medium in my instruction between what I know as 'the traditional methods' (based on training as I knew it when I began) and something a bit more 'real', from experience of other MA's as well as from Assistant Managing a town centre pub. Much like you I had a short, sharp, shock, as to how effective my karate/fighting knowledge was, even as a 2nd kyu (as at the time). From then on I've been very aware of 'realism vs ritualism', more hand in hand then as a preferance. Must be the case with anyone in most MA's, pretty much regardless of grade?

    Unlike you I belong to the rather large and impressive organisation, the JKA(the 'imposing' term rather than 'fantastical' - actually both but that's just me). I do appreciate belonging to such an Organisation in that, I have too much to learn to be too radical (and reckon I always will). Not a matter of confidence or convenience but more a love for 'the art' and the learning experience if you'll excuse the terminology and the tangent!

    Hwardo,
    I had a transitive lull when diversing to Jui-Jitsu much like you are pointing towards, although as you say, you're better off once the period is over ... having said that, it's been a while since I practiced in earnest!

    Jamie
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2004
  6. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    I guess in response to your question - how to keep students "effective" whilst they go through this learning phase - you could introduce knee (hiza) and elbow (empi) strikes (and possibly head buts). I remember doing a seminar with Billy Higgins (in the dim distant past) where he taught some great knee, elbow, head but combinations. These techniques are great because they are not difficult to master but they are still devastating. Make sure the students practice them (as well as their other techniques) on bag/sheild/focus mitts as you get a far better appreciation of the power you can generate when you perform the techniques properly.
     
  7. Radok

    Radok Love myself better than U

    I think during the first year, because of this deprogramming, I probably got worse at fighting. Ive been doing it for over 3 years now, and I'm WAY better than if I had not taken Karate. Watching school fight now, it is pathetic when you know how quickly you could finish it. The untrained people leave themselves open to any nuber of techniques.
     
  8. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I too have much too learn, but it hasn't stopped me being radical. Perhaps that's just in my nature. I don't think I could belong to such a large organisation anymore. I fear I've travelled too far to be able to fit into a traditional karate setting.

    Mike
     
  9. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul


    As I've already posted - I think I'm in agreement that de-programming happens but I don't think its widely acknowledged.


    I still train but I haven't instructed for a while. When I was instructing I didn't really think about it - although I did try to get the message across that in a self-defense situation keep your techniques simple, kicks low etc.

    Its difficult to think of adding in extra self-defence methods without introducing yet more techniques for the students to learn. As I mention, techniques involving knee and elbows are not too difficult - I'm thinking of round knee and elbow/forearm strikes as opposed to the classical, more linear versions. IMO you can heighten student effectiveness through light sparring, 2 on 1 is quite interesting if you haven't tried it before.
     
  10. MattKing

    MattKing New Member

    Hey, i never got into any fights in my younger days..(lol cant get all that much younger i know) but i do know that over the years of training the phrase muscle memory seems to apply perfectly.. When i do some sparring against my friends who havnt done any kind of martial arts i seem to be (on the whole) quicker, and more comfortable with my movement in a fight. What i have found though ( i dont know how this relates to other styles) is that a LOT of what i have learnt is hardly any use to me, the blocking techniques for example, whether im just not good enough to use them properly or what i dont know but they dont seem to be very useful to me when it comes to a real fight.
    Next point is that as long as there are rules then its going to be diferent to real life, in my Karate we have never been taught any grappling on the ground (a lot of street fights seem to end up on the ground?!), no breaks etc but a lot of line work which i admit does help with muscle memory! The point im making is when it comes down to is you need techniques that are going to work int he real world..gouging, biting, hair pulling, knees, elbows... whatever! This has urged me to look to other martial arts.. im not sure what to go for quite yet!
     
  11. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    A sensible approach. However, you might be pleased to realise that there a number of people who have done the 'being radical' bit for you already. I am largely riding on the backs of others more experienced and knowledgeable than myself, but who have the same questioning attitudes and don't do things a certain way just because that's how its always been done. Have a look at Rick Clark's website

    www.ao-denkou-kai.org

    or Vince Morris (who has a strong base in Shotokan)

    www.kissakikarate.com

    to see if/when they're doing any seminars in your area.

    Training with either of these two should open your eyes somewhat to the potential that lies within Shotokan.

    Mike
     
  12. Cheers for that Mike,

    I've read the 'blurb' and I have to say I certainly like the premises they are basing their studies on, especially with the strong Shotokan grounding of many of their instructors.

    Funnily enough, I have a kata and applications book knocking around by Vince Morris and Aidan Trimble ... quite good by all accounts, it's seems he's extended in earnest!

    Jamie
     
  13. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    It's some time ago now that this book was written, and I don't think its representative of what Vince teaches now. If you get the chance to train with him at any point you'll find what he teaches has developed considerably since then.

    Mike
     
  14. Cheers,

    I'll do some research for future referance.

    Jamie
     
  15. shotokanwarrior

    shotokanwarrior I am the One

    Head butts! and what happens when they jab you in the eye?
     
  16. TORADOJO

    TORADOJO New Member

    Depends on how and why you train. I feel that the only way to be really effective 'outside' is to fight 'outside', put yourself on the line, it's dirty, scary, horrible. I train and teach in Shotokan, did judo when younger, dabbled in knockdown but at the end of the day I think an experienced 'scrapper' will always come out on top. Your nemesis is to come up against someone with nothing to loose who is a experienced fighter in the real world, they don't care if they get hurt, hurt you, get sent down, get sued. If your instructor has't got any experience of 'real' combat then how can he teach you? How does he know how he would react in a confrontational situation, maybe his legs won't handle the adrenalin overload!
     

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