Light-hearted look...don't hurt me I'm kinda slow, I'm only reading this thread now, but OMG! You guys almost made me change the upholstery of my chair! Not intending to make light of a serious topic, but those pseudo-titles had me gasping for air. So, if I was to Irish dance, I could possibly crossover from the FMA to be "Datu of the Dance"? And, conversely, "Lord of Laban-Laro"? hehe Seriously, though, I've heard that there's a FMA character in some apparently well-known sci-fi movie. I think the character's name is "R2-Datu" j/k Duke of Kempo. Governor of Goju. Deputy Sheriff of Naginata. Supervisor of Submissions. Attorney General of Greco-Roman/Freestyle. Senator of Tai Chi. Prince of the Pocket Stick. Heck, we could fashion levels parallel to the coroprate world: Bagong Gopher; Administrator 1st-4th degree; Supervisor; Supervisor Level Dalawa; Asst. Manager of Siniwali; Manager of Siniwali & Dojo Affairs; VP of Martial Operations; President of Espada y Daga; CEO of Buntot Pagi; OK, OK, enough already... True, though...if they can back it up, heck, they can call themselves Emperors, Maitre D', Head Janitor, whatever they want! Skills are the key, not printed matter. Peace...
OK lets be a little more serious here, Firstly the FMA we all agree is a wonderful thing to have, secondly we also agree that with the general population of the Philippines it is not exactey considered to be mainstreme Martial Arts, more respect is given to TKD, Karate etc. What do that have, that FMA lacks, it is not effectiveness or technique that is for sure, It is that fact that they market and promote their art in such a way that people tend to look at it in a better light. So training in a back yard or shack is ok if that is all you can get, but why should the old Masters of the art have to put up with this teaching for very little and struggling to put food on the table. Rank and uniforms at the end of the day is a good way to promote your art to the general public and is also a good way for the public to see just how long someone has been training, after all we cannot expect the public to understand it is not about rank can we, they have no knowledge of the art and how much it has to offer, they see Martial Arts as a whole being something with structure, dicipline and organisation, even though we may feel our art is superiour to the others they have one thing that attracts the public interest and it is how they promote themselves, It's about time the FMA done the self same thing, this way we can ensure that is not only survives, it becomes larger and more popular amoungst it's own people and the Masters will soon find themselves moving out of the back yards and tin shacks to teach in the airconditioned sports halls and fitness clubs and even more important they will be able to put food on the table for simply passing on their knowledge which can only be a good thing. Yes we will have the sharlatens in the art but we have them now anyway, but with more structure, better promotion to the general public and a sence of what we are doing is for the betterment of the art as a whole we will see the FMA grow in popularity everywhere including the Philippines. This works everywhere else in the world and I can see no reason why it will not work in the PI. Why is it that the Westerner can teach his skills for a larger amount of money in better conditions than his Masters, simple, it is how he/she promotes the art to the public and if that means giving out ranks to students so they can see how they are progressing then is this not a good thing, this maybe one of those rare occasions of the Master learning from the Student. Combine the Masters knowledge with the Promotion aspect that all other martial arts systems have and we can ensure that the art will not only stay alive, it will grow in popularity, for we know what we have to offer is more than just marching up and down the hall making funny nioses. Rule 1, attract the students Rule 2, Give them something to strive for Rule 3, Then make them realise it is not about rank regards Pat
i'm with you there pat, though i still like the simplistic way of doing things. consider this instead: beginner novice senior student assistant teacher teacher though they are ranked according to skill and time, there are no other seperations or distinctivearticles of rank (save the fact that the older guys have shakey hands from constant bashing).
Hey I'm all for that, but as you know different people have different approaches to this type of thing and it will vairy from style to style and even from teacher to teacher, it is what benafits them the most at the end of the day that counts and if it makes the FMA more popular then I am all for that too. titles mean nothing to the individual but in the long run it may help the FMA become what it deserves, more popular. Hey, my hands are starting to shake more these days, I must be getting, nah it's OK I just had my hand on the washing machine and it's on full spin (keep telling yourself that Pat and it will be OK)
Very good points Pat. There is so much truth in what you say. and for the first time I actualy can see what some of the Manongs meant. I for one have been one who pushes the art in the open if for anything to propagate and educate my people of the things that they can truely be proud of because I for one was one who was guilty of colonial mentality and FMA gave back to me my sense of identity, a sense of pride and it is the source that brought me to seek out my ancestral roots. A sense of pride because I am the type that unless it can be proven then I don't believe. I never seem to do well with blind faith. It was in my travels in and out of the country that I finaly had a the opportunity to test my theories and see for myself my own truth. Anyway I used to have this vision of FMA being reborn in my country that would surpass all other foreign styles once they have been educated about not just what it is but how good it really is. You bring about very good points which certainly can be a good starting point but I have this nagging voice at the back of my mind from a conversation with one "wise manong" and this I would like to put out there AND JUST SHARE IT... I am a none conformist, I will always seek a different path taken by the least amount of people.It is the way things have been and that is why we are who we are. Change and you will affect the art and dilute it to something that will not work" -the conversation went longer than that but here is more as the words may not be exact to my recollection but this is the jist of it. It is my way of differentiating myself and my art. Many have chosen to imitate ways so that they can be accepted or become popular, like cattle they follow the current trends which is not our way. we have survived because we teach and train the way we ourselves found it effectivity....in secret or only to a chosen few. Give it away to be practiced by everyone and you have lost the element of surprise. The quality shared by many lessens and now instead of quality , you now have quantity and that will always affect your value. It's like a commodity , Mercedez Benz is not a common in our country and thus with it's limited amount tends to raise a very good value. Take that Mercedez and make it common then it no longer has as good a value, then people will start to make cheaper versions of the same. A Mercedez with a toyota engine! This has happened to FMA as it has become popular. You now have all these fancy locks and disarms...ridiculous! it has only become popular by those who want to impress and feel good about themselves like they too have an art worth teaching when in fact they only cheapen the art with teaching fancy stuff that will not work! Simplicity is what made us survive. Katas in Kali? Karate with sticks , Belt systems in Kali? all these fancy locks will get you killed, you had a stick- hit with it! You have a hammer use it to hammer things not embrace people with it, you want to embrace use a blanket to wrap them before they get buried. We are blades oriented that's why when you go away from the eral thing all this starts to happen. Be careful what you wish for, change does not mean better. There is a reason why they had the cold war, guarding each other's capability to destory the other. This art is combat not sport. You must also guard it. You want to bring it out because you say it may die out? Look at our History, it has not died out , we have no writen history yet you will find our art practiced. it is this none regimented way of training that keeps our skills and learning ways efficient. Turn it into a regimented and structured way with writen manuals and your learning process will loose it's quality. You now are a hand fed cow! We are predators, we go out and seek our own way of things we are not domesticated by a regimented way of watered down way of life but a natural instict of survival.........and the conversation went deeper and deeper. I can see his point. There is a price to pay for everything. It may not be as bad as we once thought it was. Those that do teach it in their backyards prefer it that way. No offense meant to anyone. it is what it is. Just someone else's opinion but it cetainly made me rethink things.
You have some very good points Bayani and it may well be a case of combining the two, but we have to admit that the FMA is not shed in a good light amoungst most Pinoys, so to help remedy this and to show the Pinoy just how wonderfull an art they really have, maybe the need to adopt some of the tactics of the other arts is what is needed. After all if an enemy has a better tactic than you, you steal it and improve it then use it against them, that is FMA after all. Yes like everything every method has it's good and it's bad side, and teaching from the back yard has it's good side, but the bad side is that most Manongs get from the back yard mentality is that most die in poverty and in silence, and this is to my mind the worst thing of all. Maybe it is about time that the Pinoy was shown the FMA for what it realy is and if this means dressing it up a bit and giving it a uniformed identity then I feel the benefits will far out weigh the pitfalls both for the art and for the Manongs. If it has worked so well for all other arts and we can see the pit falls to what they do, then maybe we can adapt their methods, improve on them and show them that the FMA will eventually lead the way when it comes to real combat applications. A warrior in fancy clothing is still as deadly as a warrior in torn jeans. beat regards Pat
Careful about saying dying in poverty and silence as a note of downfall, they may not have money but the quality of life is subjective, family, happiness is there, respect , dignity and a close following. To some what more can you ask for? Not all are also poor, they are practitoners of the art and do not depend on the art to make a living. Running a full time school with kids running around (some schools are baby sitters), making up things to sell more products, drinks, uniforms, videos ( now it's like a sari-sari store , a convinient store and having to worry constantly about paying the rent is not for them as a way of life. The peace and quiet of the provines in exchange for the hussle and bussle of city life though lacking in currency has it's advantages. If the enemy has a good tactic and you do steal it and improve upon it then why show and share it for everyone to see to include your eneny? The mentality here is not of a commercialized teaching but a private honing of a skill to be used to your advantage and that may mean to save your life. That is the comabtive mentality of my manong. The Gracies were the top of their game before they came out and showed what grappling was all about, Today they are still respected but no longer feared like they once were because everyone now knows their game......Pat I am in agreement with you what I am pointing out is that to some...not all, The fighting arts have been used and passed on not for commerce or commercial popularity and they want it to stay that way. Show your hand in poker and you loose. This is a principle of the things learned in a combative art. There is a compromise though ....everyone do what they feel is right for them. because my Manong will continue to pass on his ways to his followers, watching , developing from behind backyards as others openly pass on what they feel is good for their art and what satisfies their goals, watching the changes as they adapt for popularity , displaying their hand and thus formulating his way to be a step ahead , watching the carabaos (water buffalo) as he says ......that is his FMA. Me? I've learned to just enjoy everything and do what serves my taste- lambanog ( Moonshine) , with pulutan ( foods to go with your drink) and learn whatever is thrown my way cheers
I do appologies, that is not what I meant, but I have in the past seen great men leave in silence with no one really knowing what they had to offer was more valuable than gold, and I often see not so great men gain everything for a very little amount of knowledge (mainly tourist FMAers) and live from this so it annoys me. Regrads Pat
I understand what you are talking about. The choices of these masters to stay quiet or underground is theirs. Case in point one Master living beside his brother who's systems is world known for the sport, One is a shanty the other well built. But did he change his art to follow the one that has evolved with the integration of other systems to include judo and karate with arnis? NO . He chose to stick with his interpreation based on his own influences, not carring if his sytems was not as aggressive or popular knowing he could make just as much money and travel the world. We sometimes want more for the people around us thinking that we feel we know what is best and we don't. Our passions may drive us so far that we don't take the time to listen to what they want, not what we want for them. The best way is to be a good student and do justice to what they pass on to you. They know that they will have your support, you can always offer seminars and stipend to them. It's all subjective, sometimes running a large organization while it can bring good money will lead to differences of opinion leading to separations of schools from the same source not to mention family squables common to all arts. Some feel that in their development of a hgiher understanding of the art, it all leads to seek harmony within while knowing if their life depended on it the harmony of "rest in peace" falls on the opponent : )
Good points made and I agree with your points wholeheartedly, It just annoys me when I see the paper tigers lay claim to something they actually know nothing about. And I think I may know who you are talking about, or maybe the people I am thinking about have had the same senario happen? very possible when it comes to the old Manongs and the newer Manongs shall we say.
then there are those that just train, play and drink lambanog and eat pulutan beside the pool. both of you are welcome to join if you're here.
Mmmm, sounds like a good idea, I am planning a visit in December 2005 so I may have to hold you to that "All hail Shootodog, for he offers food, drink and excersise"
if you have to change some of the important parts of you art, just to gain students, is it worth it to pass on the art? especially if it is not the same art you wanted to teach? is it so bad to not make a lot of money? what is better, to pass the art to a fully qualified student who lives up to your desire for inheritor, or to pass the art to 100 men who are not as good, but at the least the art lived on? yes it is true that many of the great masters let there art die with them, probably because that great dedicated student never came his way. i say good. because at least the philippine fighting arts will have fewer weak representatives. i go back and fourth between a lot of students, and struggling to pay my bills, but i am happy with the fighting ability of the students who pass through my doors. i would not want it any other way. i know teachers who are ashamed of their students, and they dont SAY it, but when i am around they are making excuses, have to pay bills, not everyone is cut out for the "real" art, etc. i dont have that problem. i dont allow visitors to my classes, i charge higher tuition, i dont use contracts, and i make all my students fight, and hard. but i have no regrets. we do not give belts (even though i say it on my website, i give it to the people who ask). i separate men and women, and i dont teach children under 13. when visitors are around i am "guro", and "kuya" when they leave. i use to call my classes "philippine karate" to get them in the door, but i hated it, plus my friends made jokes and we cant have that. so i am back to doing what i love, and i dont feel like i need to compete against karate and tae kwon do by joining them with the titles and degrees. like the saying, skill is rank, when somebody needs convincing i am always prepared to spar, with or without the sticks. this is the filipino way. so i agree with crucible and bayani, the title of "datu" i dont really like it, but i respect the man, no matter what you call yourself. our saying in kuntaw is, your own fighting ability, not other people opinion or friendship, is the reputation you want. and add to that, especially the reputation you get from a title or certificate. i do say this the most respect i can.
A Suggested Ranking System without the aristocratic titles Sir shootodog, your gradiated list is a good idea. However, please allow me to suggest that two different paths can be taken because I know a lot of martial artists who are great practicioners but can't teach the art properly, and some martial artists who may not have 1st class skills, but are good at bringing out 1st class skills in others. So, there may be two paths for the escrimador, and my suggested ranks/titles: Path 1 - The Path of the Teacher: (Very much like the list given by shootodog) Novice (basics of fighting) Beginning Amateur (higher level of skill, knows at least 10% of technique corpus) Advanced Amateur (much higher level of skill than stage 2, knows at least 20% of technique corpus) Apprentice Teacher (much higher level of skill than stage 3, must know more than 60% of technique corpus and should show proficiency in passing on techniques; courses in strategy and tactics should be a must at this point; reasonable proficiency in a variety of weapons) Teacher (not necessarily higher level of skill than stage 4, but must know more techniques as well as understanding the history of the school or tradition; a must is proficiency in passing on techniques, as in stage 4, but may now have better proficiency or preference for a certain style or tactic and a greater proficiency at different weapons) Master Teacher (must definitely have a higher skill level than stage 4, as well as knowing more than 90% of technique corpus and having not just the proficiency but more extensive experience in passing it on; furthermore, advanced studies in technique development, strategy and tactics are recommended) Grandmaster (repository of the school's or tradition's techniques; must be able to effectively pass down entirety of technique corpus as well as improve and contribute to the tradition; but, usually being old, should not be expected to be as strong as those below in rank) Path 2 - Path of the Man-at-Arms (ranked based on skill like in boxing, that is, based on actual performance in a fight and not the number of techniques one knows; please note the fine differences and the overlapping of ranks from above) Novice (basics of fighting) Beginning Amateur (satisfactory performance) Advanced Amateur (much higher level of skill than stage 2 and must already be involved in some practice sparring) Dilettante Fighter (much better physical conditioning than stage 3 though not necessarily higher in skill level; not necessarily one of the top dogs, but can hold one's own in a fight most of the time) Professional Fighter (much more commitment, stamina, and skill than stage 4; has trained and studied the art to the point that his fighting skill can now be counted on reliably even if the actual repertoire of techniques is small; combat soldiers may fall in this category) Master-at-Arms (skills, stamina and commitment even greater than in stage 5; must be able to best those on stage 5 reasonably often in sparring or real matches, even if the actual repertoire of techniques is quite small) Grandmaster (must have proved himself as "the best of the best" in a fight reasonably often during the peak of his life even if he/she eventually gets beaten by someone younger, or more skillful, or stronger; basically, one who already belongs to the "Hall of Fame") In my suggested list above, there are four ranks in common in both paths: the lowest three and the highest rank. Overlapping can, I believe, happen and may be encouraged, like a Master Teacher can also be a Professional Figher, or a Master-at-Arms can be an Apprentice Teacher. However, I believe that Grandmasters should have followed both paths, that is be both the best teacher and the best soldier, even if that Grandmaster later becomes too old to always be the best fighter around. These paths, I think, will not only give FMA a much more unique ranking than other MAs out there, but also more functional and descriptive. I would have loved bringing back the old "Lakan" and "Dayang" ranks but they have also been used to describe nobility and aristorcracy in Philippine history (Lakandula, for instance). Please tell me what you think and whether these "paths" are practicable or just wishful thinking.
in an a way you are correct. there are fighters and there are teachers. sometimes teachers are fighters. sometimes they're two different things entirely. my point is this: if you can't pass on the art, what use is it to be called guro?
