Attached is the 'Cycle of TKD' as printed in Gen. Choi's manuals. I`ve posted it here, so others can see what it is and what it covers and so that we can discuss a) what Gen Choi means by each section and b) what each section means to us. In the 'cycle of TKD' he outlines 5 areas and equate them to 'military' things - do you agree with this? Does whats stated make sense to you? I`m sure also, those that know the books inside and out can give broader definitions to the terms. Perhaps, maybe those will military experience could also weigh in on this discussion! Either way, I thought it would make an interesting discussion! Stuart
Okay, I`ll start. Forgetting the actual circle part for the moment: 1. Fundamental movements = Individual Soldiers basic training - sure, i can live wit that - getting the basics down are essential in MA's as they are in the military. 2. Dallyon = Maintenance of Equipment I always thought dallyon meant conditioning ie. fitness, forging your knuckles all in all keeping things strong - which i can equate to a solder keeping his equipment tip top - but I just went to look this up (in the book) and came across the words dallyon joo (training aids)... so dallyon means training! Even so, I guess training (regularly) 'could equate to Maintenance of Equipment with the equipment being yourself!! 3. Patterns = Platoon Tactics This one I don't really get - I guess a group of people doing patterns, at the same time could be equated to a platoon moving, but tactics! Where does a bunch of people doing the same moves in sync equal any tactics? Does he mean the moves within the patterns can be considered 'tactical'... ? 4. Sparring = Field exercises in simulated combat conditions Hmm.. a bit of a stretch with todays competitive free-sparring, but as "other" (for want of a better word) more involved sparring allows more attacking tools, then I can equate this - as it has rules, so remains simulated ie. not real, has combat (to a degree) and can be equated with soldiers practicing! 5. Self-defence = Actual combat I think what hes getting at here is that when practicing this area, all moves should be done fully and forcefully, as should counter attacks - though in reality, its often a little less than that for safety. However, I don't really see it as 'actual combat', as in actual combat, there is no - you attack/I defend type of thing - anyone can attack, anyone can defend and do so in any way they wish, this isn't how hosinsul is practiced AFAIA! Thoughts? Stuart
"Dallyon" means primarily "to forge" or "to temper" (like tempering steel). This is why Dallyon Joo is translated as "forging post," Dallyon Bag is translated as "forging bag," and Dallyon Gune is translated as "forging pendulum." It can also mean hard or disciplined training but this is a secondary definition. The primary meaning of dallyon is to do exercises that specifically harden (or "forge") your attacking and blocking tools. Other methods of dallyon will increase flexibility, muscle strength, etc. Every member of a platoon will not necessarily be doing the exact same thing at the exact same time. (In the U.S. army there are, IIRC, 42 soldiers in a platoon. The point being that in any army a platoon is a fairly large group of people.) It's good to remember, too, that a strategy is an overall plan while tactics are the means used to accomplish the plan. In this analogy Gen. Choi seems to be saying that patterns, even when performed by an individual, teach people the tactics necessary to put into play their overall strategy. Each pattern will have different tactics to impart, of course. As an interesting aside, the 1965 textbook states that "[t]he hallmark of this school (the Chang Hun patterns) is the combination of fast and slow, light and forceful movements together with extensive foot-work." In my personal experience I would say not to over look the footwork in the patterns with regards to tactics. It's very important that people don't simply equate "sparring" with "free sparring," IMO. Gen. Choi designed his system of sparring to progress the student from a very basic and controlled situation (3-step sparring without a partner at first!) to what would be, in his analogy, a live fire exercise (free sparring). Each step on the way is important and students should repeatedly come back to them and practice all the "lower" methods of sparring no matter what their rank. I have seen schools go from doing only 3-step, 1-step, and free sparring to adding in all of Gen. Choi's sparring methods and have the quality of its students' fighting increase dramatically over the course of some months. Remember, like with sine wave, these are analogies used by Gen. Choi to describe aspects of training. Of course when you practice ho sin sul it won't be an actual combat with your partner and, indeed, students will have to begin with somewhat slow cooperative practice until they are proficient with the techniques themselves. But once this proficiency has been reached then, by the logic of the analogy, the training should become at least as rigorous as that of free sparring. As Gen. Choi states in the encyclopedia, these techniques "can only be effective if students take the time to constantly train with them under realistic conditions." If people aren't doing that it just means they aren't doing what Gen. Choi said they should be doing and should think about bringing their training methods more in line with what he wanted (and here I assume we are referring to people who are specifically doing Taekwon-Do as he designed it, not KKW TKD or any other system). Pax, Chris
Good point on the 'sparring' - I should have remembered that, but it was fairly late here when I posted that Stuart
To me this sort of progression makes absolute sense (and it makes sense to cycle through them to maintain skills too). I'm not sure the military analogy really works but I feel the progression is sound. Number 1 is obvious. Build the fundamental tools for the job. That's a given and applies to any endeavour really. Gotta have a foundation. Number 2 is honing those tools and maintaining them. I can read that to be in terms of personal fitness, hitting impact equipment, strengthening the mind/will, eating right, etc etc. I can see that as the very narrow definition of hitting a dallyon joo but also as a much wider concern that touches on the very nature of doing martial arts at all. Number 3. Is a little woolly. In theory a good set of patterns SHOULD embody tactics and principles that inform you on how best to implement your basic tools in combat/SD. Where, why and when to hit. When to lock/throw/disengage. The tactical basis of the whole system. Sadly I feel TKD patterns aren't designed to impart that kind of information. I think they are designed to flow and "look nice" rather than have underlying unified principles. Although Stu does a good job of bringing such principles out in his books I don't think they are what the patterns are about. If Gen. Choi wanted the patterns to have that use he should have desiged them differently IMHO. Sparring as number 4 is fine. Putting the tools, principles and tactics into practice. Actual live practice. An obvious thing here for me would be to ensure different formats are used as no sparring will ever fully re-create reality. So it needs approaching from different directions and angles. And then number 5 (self defence) is a reminder that all the other facets are building to that. You may be good at sparring, drilling, hitting things, patterns etc but if you can't actually use them for real then you are missing the point. This could also cover the contextual knowledge you need to defend yourself. Use of force, the law, attack rituals, target hardening, awareness etc. This to me should cover how you take the theoretical and dojang training into the real world.
I'm just a beginner in TKD and as a result of my novice status am totally in awe of your guys knowledge of TKD. Have any of you actually seen this cylce of progression take place in a military setting? Or more to the point is it fair to say that in a non military setting that this cycle progression is absolute and adhered to by TKD masters in every dojang on the planet? Baza
Yes I agree & getting back to the free sparring & tournament sparring, would you say as Gen. Choi did, that free sparring is essentially an open combat where all & any means of attack & defense are FREE to be used, given safety constraints. But then in a tournament there are even more constraints via all of the rules with prohibited attacks & target areas?
I would say, as Gen. Choi did, that Sparring is the equivalent of field exercises in simulated combat conditions and self-defense would be actual combat. Pax, Chris
I came across this looking for pattern application vids, I wondered where people see this coming into the cycle, or is it something outside that? [ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7i_iG1RKHMA[/ame] Mitch
I think the cycle of taekwon-do just reinforces that there is more to taekwon-do than sparring and patterns
Actually I think I now am leaning more towards your writings on this. You have helped me see something more that I was seeing before, thanks! I would also add that sd or Hoosinsul gives the additional options of releasing & breaking motions, while most sparring can be seen to be limited to the attacking motion.
Well this is a made up skit for a sd routine during a test. While he is a very good student of TKD my major criticism would be that there is not enough releases & breaking motion applications in it. It relies too heavily on attacking motions,me hitch is covered so well in all of the types of sparring that Gen. Choi devised. This is in the cycle around sparring & sd.
Heres a nice hosinsul demo [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXnyM44VtPs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXnyM44VtPs[/ame] I mean.. if you going to do it as a demo... at last make it decent!
A nice film demo, yes. I'd like to know Chris' definition of free sparing so we can move on to discussing self defence as another aspect of TKD. Mitch
LOL.. I know, just thought I`d see what people would say if I said that - its the devil in me! :evil:
I agree that one doesnt make much sense. It is always good to remember that the only reason for doing patters and line work all at the same time like robots is because of TKD's link to Karate. Basicaly its done because they did it. And the only reason Karate did it was when it was used in the military as part of the process to get Japanese soldiers to die for the Emperor and country. They wanted robots who did anything they were asked of. Katas or patterns or whatever we call them make less sense like that and were never meant to be done in a robotic manner by everyone at the same time.
^ are you sure about that? I always thought they were like a physical mnemonic, a combination of techniques and movements, which across all patterns are like a catalogue for that style.
