Crosstraining for taekwondo improvement?

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Counter, Jan 21, 2007.

  1. Counter

    Counter Train more. Train harder.

    Hello everyone,

    Since i started visit this forum (which is not so long ago), I kinda thought you guys have quite some knowledge about martial arts and other fighting sports together. Therefore, I think this question might be a good one to ask to you.. It might be a question that has been discussed a zillion times before, but i couldn't really find anything about this specifically yet, so I'm either blind or asking a new question ;)

    I've been doing taekwondo for quite a while now, and am training 4 times a week now for taekwondo only (next to 2 times a week fitness). I feel like the moment has come to give some special attention to my punches since i feel like they are not developed well enough. I therefore considered going to do some (recreational) boxing once a week. I know that this might give me punch-to-the-head-reflexes which i don't need (Oh, yeah, i do WTF taekwondo), but i still think this might add something to my taekwondo skills.
    I've been doing quite some tournaments lately and i guess punching is something worthy of looking at since i think defending against it is a weak point many tkd-fighters have.

    Could you please give me advice about how to improve my punches (besides punching more at training, i'm already doing that)? I just want to do some recreational boxing without too much sparring so that i can keep my taekwondo-stance and reflexes for the tournaments..

    Thanks in advance!
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2007
  2. Hsoj

    Hsoj Valued Member

    I feel the same way you do. I want to take up boxing too. Unfortunantly, there is absolutly no boxing club or organization where I am. My friend wants to just pick up some headgear and gloves and just go at it... but I'm a little hesitent. It could just end sour.
     
  3. Counter

    Counter Train more. Train harder.

    Yes i'd be careful with that too.. besides hurting eachother you might also learn the wrong techniques and so just make your punches worse than better. I am fortunate to have a boxing school literally around the corner, but even when it would be quite far away from me i would still prefer a boxing school to training at home mate.
     
  4. AITKDMan

    AITKDMan New Member

    Punching in TKD is almost a lost art. I dont really know where you are with your punches to be able to tell you specifically things you can do, but boxing is a good place to start. If you want your punches and fists to get stronger you can add some makawara training as well. However, I would suggest finding someone who is also looking to further their hand techniques and practicing with them. Just have either one of you throw controlled punches at eachother and try to block. Eventually you willbe able to vary the heights, add hook punches, etc., but the important thing is that you will be learning how to block at the same time as you punch. A training technique I sometimes use is to not let my students kick at all during some classes when fighting, which forces you to concentrate on your hands if they are feeling a bit neglected.
     
  5. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Is it? News to me my friend!

    Good advice, its the best place to go if you really want to get your punching up, double that if you dont do and hand work in classes!

    Dollyo jang in Korean (but ask for a makawara as the guy in the shop wont know what your talking about. Loved mine to bits (gone through 3 in my time)

    Good advice, also get some focus pads and a boxing book/video etc. (if you cant get someone to show you directly) and do some drills on the pads (isolated, combo's, slips, bobs, etc) then apply with a partner - dont forget the defensive work as mentioned before and the foot work!


    good luck,

    Stuart
     
  6. Cait

    Cait da Bionic is BACK!

    this may sound a little odd, but here's a neat drill you can do to help your punches.

    light a candle. try to blow it out with only your punch...
    it's good for working on speed & technique. make sure you're examining all aspects of your punch too, ie. stance, rotation, using your other arm to generate the equal/opposite action...
     
  7. bigreddog

    bigreddog Valued Member

    Cross training is really important imho - you don't need to do a lot to get an understanding of the basics (which are usually the key anyway). Adding a jab, cross and a hook to TKD will change the equation significantly. (You might consider emphasising hooks and uppercuts, since the straight punches are still found in WTF, but punching at very close range is a bit of a lost art)

    The only thing I would caution is putting things together can be difficult e.g. different footwork and body mechanics mean that it isn't just a question of doing both - you will have to work out how to combine them in a way that works for you.
     
  8. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    I think Boxing and TKD are a good combination. There's very little conflict between the two. Well... compared to something like TKD and WC... that would be disaterous.

    Anyway why don't you just fight with your buddies at TKD training in non-kicks-allowed sparring. Start from a distance from where you'd normally be able to land a kick and do it that way.

    Other than that there's the heavy bag, although I often find the heavy bag not as realistic as a stationary target... wait you guys got that TKD armor stuff, just smash one of your buddies while he's wearing it. The korean version of the makiwara is not a bad idea to check out aswell.
     
  9. Counter

    Counter Train more. Train harder.

    I'm currently at the level of being able to throw correctly timed and placed punches in counter, but i feel like there's much to improve there. I think a better technique would make me able to (as you said) use hooks (in the liver?) and other punches besides a jab. I will also try to practise blocking while punching, thanks for the advice! I think i know what a makawara is now and i'll try to find one somewhere.. Looks like a good thing to improve your punches by yourself.

    As for the problems of keeping my own stance and not the boxing style; i will try to keep my own taekwondo-stance as much as possible during the boxing classes. I know that this might be difficult to do.. but i'll try :) What worries me more is the fact that i might get an automatic response of punching someone in the face when he gets near me, but also that should be able to work out of my system (for now..).

    The blowing out candles with my fists sounds a bit odd indeed, but if you say it works i'll try!
    Thanks for the advice people! I'll start trying it out asap. More opinions/tips are always welcome ;)
     
  10. ACsteveDC

    ACsteveDC New Member

    I came from boxing and then went to taekwondo (itf) to be honest about stances a boxing stance in sparring is what i automatically adopt and i feel it works very well. If you do go to a boxing gym which i think would be a good idea just remember to keep those hands up boxers dont like hands down, but obviously you will be tought this. As for keeping your stance during boxing it really depends on your stance as it is now, a boxing stance is second to none for punches and obviously not so good for something like fast kicks, but moving between a boxing stance and say a long stance is quite quick and with practice will become natural.

    I tried punching candles out. even if it doesent do anything for you which i imagine it does its fun lol.

    -steve
     
  11. AITKDMan

    AITKDMan New Member

    Dont forget your other hand techniques either. You have knife and ridgehand techniques that come from different angles that can aid you when fighting with hands. I find uppercut to be effective when you are fighting in close because it comes mostly from the hip.

    You may also want to concentrate on blocking away more if you get into fights where you and your opponent are both using hands. When you just block you quite often allow your opponent to keep his gaurd up as well but when you block away you tend to open their whole body up. If you can manage to block away and hit at the same time people generally dont see that coming as they are not used to both blocking and attacking with the same technique.

    Also, do your best to keep your tkd stance, just because you are starting to institute more hand techniques dont let other techniques that are more easily thrown from a tkd stance suffer.


    Its a bit off topic but I remember being at one of the tests that happen to be around my instructors birthday (this was when i was a green belt i think so it was probably 10 years ago) and some of the upperbelts as a birthday surprise lit candles on a birthday cake and blew them out with their punches for him...thought that was a pretty cool idea for a martial arts birthday.
     
  12. Cait

    Cait da Bionic is BACK!

    it's great fun, yes. :) also allows you to work on proximity, as you don't particularly want to singe your hand...
    i've found the 3" pillars provide the best challenge. tapers are pretty easy.

    but yes to the crosstraining. even if it does change the way your tkd works, you become a better rounded ma'ist
     
  13. Counter

    Counter Train more. Train harder.

    Okay good to know steve, so i guess it will be a bit easier than i expected :) Only thing is, i do WTF taekwondo, and there is a difference in stance between WTF and ITF so i can't be entirely sure yet.. But the fact that someone who started out with boxing can also adapt to the tkd system is a good sign.

    I had really not a clue that you could use knife and ridgehand techniques in taekwondo sparring. How should i imagine that, just the sort of knife and ridgehand strikes you also use during poomsae? It sounds incredibly difficult to me, but if i can find a way to use it i definitely will!

    And could you please give me some more information about how to open their guard and punching at the same time? Should i do some sort of middle block from inward out with a bended arm and follow the outward movement of my arm with my other arm so that i can also use the power of my hips in my swing and punch?

    Thing is, i want to improve my punches just to get better at taekwondo, so that's why i don't really want it to have a bad side effect on my stance..

    So how do you really do that? Do you really punch into the flame or do you stop your fist right before it? And i guess i'll just start out with the tapers ;)

    Thanks again people!
     
  14. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    You have to separate two completely different things:
    Punching for Self Defence =/= Punching for tournament WTF or ITF TKD, so decide which purpose you're trainng for and train to suit.

    If you're training solely for WTF sparring, you probably don't need boxing training. Why should it be relevant under WTF sparring rules?

    But you don't do self-defence at sparring range for the most part, you may well have to fight SD from a clinch for exampl, but WTF and even ITF sparrng will not teach you this, so boxing is probably an excellent idea, with the caveat that you need to adapt it to SD in the same way you adapt TKD.

    And unless you train absolutely, specifically, and only for WTF sparring, a "punch to the head reflex" is one of the single best things you can possibly "add to your TKD skills". :)

    Regards,
    Mitch
     
  15. AITKDMan

    AITKDMan New Member

    You don't want to get too reliant on them, but people generally dont expect you to ridgehand them to the outside of the head...just not something they see everyday, same with single knife. Now, this may not be a legal move depending on the rules if you go to a tournament so you have to be careful with that.

    That's the general idea, as you are coming out from your block your non-blocking hand is already halfway out and ready to strike...imagine you have a foot long string attached to your hands so as you block out with your lead hand your rear hand follows. It leaves you open a little, but if you become fast enough it is very effective. Another thing you can do if lead off an uppercut with the beginning of a highoutside blocks and effectively force their hands out of the way and open up a spot on their body. There are many different things you can do, just be creative and be ready to change your attack plan on the fly if you need to.




    You stop right before the flame and if your punch is thrown with snap and speed then the wind created by the punch will blow out the candle.
     
  16. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Honestly guy's wouldn't you be so much better off punching heavy bags and focus mitts? I don't need to punch out candles, God gave me lungs to blow them out with :) ! Yes you can do it, you can do it with a kick too; but is there much point?

    Parlour tricks are one thing.

    Point sparring is another.

    Personal defence is another again.

    The last two rarely involve candles... ;) :)

    Mitch
     
  17. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    Thats not a half bad idea. I might give that a go. :eek:
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2007
  18. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Im afraid that once you become confident and perhaps "up" the contact levels you wont be able to maintain a WTF type stance as a boxing stance is not only much more suited for attacking with punches (hence why they use it), but also a much better stance to defend/cover against heavy punches as well!

    However, like Mitch says, if its just sport related (ie. quick techniques to score) and your happy with that, then you possibly could get away with WTF stances and just drop back and forth between the weight when kicking or punching! Though if your gonna invest time training them, Id suggest making them relative to SD first as these are the best techniques for the street bar none!

    Stuart



    Whats a taper? (out of interest)

    Stuart
     
  19. Cait

    Cait da Bionic is BACK!

    a taper is the long thin candle, the kind you'd see on a dinner table...

    side note: wtf sparring rules do not allow open hand strikes

    mitch - i know it's just a funny parlor trick, but there really is a lot about your technique you can learn from it. like i said before, proximity, speed, technique... if you haven't got these, the candle doesn't go out.
     
  20. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    My brain hurts.

    Using a candle to train punches is a parlor trick and nothing more and is essentially a waste of time in actually using it to "train". If you want to do it as a demonstration or to impress your friends then why not.

    If you are going to train punches, train them the way you do kicks, just apply it to your hands. Contrary to what patterns say I wouldn't use the standard action/reaction motion in opposing hand pulled in to the hip while you punch. That is . . . well ridiculous and leaves you open. Hands up and work from the shoulders.

    As Mitch mentioned about in improving your punches we don't really know what your goals are so I won't give you drills to do. As long as you are applying what you are working on with a partner it should be fine.

    If you want to improve your power and speed with punches during your "fitness" routine you may want to do some focus work on the muscles around your rotator cuff, pectoralis major, pectoralis minor, lattisimus dorsi, and serratus anterior. Those aren't all the muscles involved, but they are some of the major ones. Could also do some work on the trapezius and deltoids as well. (Serratus anterior actually is nicknamed the boxers muscle)
     

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