Critical opinion required please

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by ShedHead, Oct 12, 2009.

  1. Anth

    Anth Daft. Supporter

    Well, that answers that question!

    Trolling when you've just had a PM from an Admin telling you not to is just taking the mick, as is posting the contents of a private message (which is against the TOS). Carry on folks :)
     
  2. stephenk

    stephenk Valued Member

    So, you said exactly the same thing in the post I was responding to. I addressed exactly to this point. That is: you're right, I have nothing 'verifiable'. The same nothing you have.

    Please re-read or rebut my post, as I addressed that point specifically. My argument may have holes in it, so please show me where they are so that I can either improve my understanding or modify my position. I would love to be able to understand this better with your help. I mean it, I'm not being facetious.

    So, a bunch of anecdotes then? There's many members of the Bujinkan that have been involved in very violent incidents. Are you saying that if these events were recorded and verified to have happened you would accept the Bujinkan martial arts as in the same categories as the others? How many incidents are required? Please describe what is acceptable 'verification'.

    Actually this is what I'm talking about. What Takamatsu sensei did isn't a good reason for anyone to accept the Bujinkan martial arts as 'the real deal'. They are just anecdotes as well. Just like the anecdotes you have.

    If this is so simple why are there more than one martial art? Is it because there was no one as smart as the current MAP posters to figure it out? Maybe, but just realize that that's the argument that's being accepted in that case.

    Edit: Simul-post with Anth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2009
  3. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    I'm saying that there's a problem in expecting to meet untrained fighters on mutually agreed upon terms - because untrained fighters are an entire different animal.
    who said they had to meet on mutually agreed terms?
    I carry a weapon on me all the time.
    But the thing is.... Unless they have a weapon I won't really have to USE my weapon. because I have effective unarmed combat. Which is pressure tested to work.
    And lets see
    160 people in the UK a day statistically are attacked with Knives

    "Incidents involving a firearm represented 9% of the 4.7 million violent crimes of rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated and simple assault in 2005." -http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

    Now out of the thousands of fights that probably happen a day. Whether it be a schoolyard fight or a club/bar fight.
    That's a SMALL number.
    Therefore the likely hood of you getting into a fight with a guy who is using a weapon and is determined to kill you is LOW.
    Most fights are just disagreements where the other guy just wants to embarrass or beat you to an extent that makes them feel comfortable. And something they won't receive life in prison for. As sick as lot of humans are not all of them are bloodthirsty.
    So someone effective in UNARMED combat is going to have a REAL good chance vs someone who isn't. End of story really.
    And honestly... if you can't even defeat someone who is unarmed. What makes you think your chances are even better if they are armed?
    So why even bring up the "what if they're armed argument"
    You can't even prove you'd survive if they were unarmed in the first place.


    By the same logic, I don't have to see you trying to handle that woman to know you're full of crap.

    Like I said..... If you have problems maintaining or controlling a 210lb WOMAN... You have a LOT of conditioning to do. I can build you a workout regime if you want.


    Right, and we often forget the fact that untrained people respond to martial arts techniques in entirely different ways. The risk of injuries is way higher.

    If they're being controlled, they cannot respond in the first place nor can they cause injuries.


    Last try - no weapons, mutually agreed upon terms, similar training background between the participants, even floors, it's all within the legal requirements, no intent to hurt each other, no mental illness, drugs or alcohol involved, and winning the fight is the most importanting AS OPPOSED to a self defense situation in which your goal is to end the damn thing quickly and get away. Either you don't want to admit this or your level of intelligence won't allow you to, and I think that's from everyone here.

    Trying to insult my intelligence doesn't really help your case.
    no weapons - She was using teeth and nails as weapons.
    mutually agreed upon terms - My G/F didn't agreed to get pinned nor did we make up any terms. We weren't trying to cause serious harm or anything that would put us in the hospital. Either way since she was controlled and could not move as soon as I grabbed hold of her. Doesn't matter if she was or not.
    similar training background between the participants - Uhhh she wasn't trained in anything at this point.
    even floors - Like this really matters?
    t's all within the legal requirements - I didn't do anything illegal to my g/f when I pinned her down.
    no mental illness - This wouldn't help someone win a struggle
    drugs or alcohol involved - This wouldn't help someone win a struggle
    winning the fight is the most importanting - Wasn't really a fight because she was controlled the whole time.

    Just like the 210lb woman would've been if I were in your shoes.

    But like I said if you're having troubles handling a woman with no training in combat.

    I suggest hitting the gym VERY quickly.
     
  4. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    You do, when you say that competition and real situations are essentially the same.

    Legally?

    I think it's slightly higher for me.

    And in that case, you don't need to participate. Defending yourself is legal - fighting isn't.

    On the other side of the equation - just because you can defeat someone who is unarmed, doesn't mean you can handle him when he's got a weapon.

    And again, I don't have to see you in action to know you're full of crap on this one.

    There is no such thing as absolute control. If someone is willing to have an arm broken or dislocated in order to get free, well...

    I never thought I'd say this, but

    ZOMG LOLZ

    There you go!

    From what you've been telling me, that woman put up a little more of a fight than your girlfriend did. After all, she likes you (I hope for your sake).
     
  5. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    You do, when you say that competition and real situations are essentially the same.
    I never said competition and real situations are the same.
    But I did say that sparring is the best way of proving your technique works in practice and is effective.
    Anyone can make up some situation where NO form of martial arts will help you.
    Like "WHAT IF THERES A HUGE METEOR COMING TO EARTH"
    The point is.... atleast the competitor is proven to be effective in unarmed combat therefore helping in MOST AVERAGE combat situations he'll come across in his lifetime. Rather than someone who uses an ineffective martial arts and can't even do that much.

    Legally?
    Yup

    I think it's slightly higher for me.
    I highly doubt it. People rarely try to kill a police officer or try to fight back to a serious extent. Sure you have those situations where you have a criminal that desperate where he'll try to shoot back or pull out a weapon to cause injury.
    Not many police officers i've talked to have been in gun fights.
    Or had big gigantic hot pursuits.
    In fact a police officer can have a daily routine for a long time before something major happens.


    And in that case, you don't need to participate. Defending yourself is legal - fighting isn't.
    Besides the point.
    The point is you're bring up vivid cases that rarely happen in ones lifetime.
    And cases where martial arts really cannot help you.

    On the other side of the equation - just because you can defeat someone who is unarmed, doesn't mean you can handle him when he's got a weapon.
    Never said differently.


    And again, I don't have to see you in action to know you're full of crap on this one.
    lol < Me and my Brother are laughing at you on this one.

    If you're having THAT much problems handling an untrained woman.
    You need to hit the gym immediately.

    There is no such thing as absolute control. If someone is willing to have an arm broken or dislocated in order to get free, well...
    How are they going to break or dislocate their arm if they cannot move?
    In order to break their arm they would require a hard strike. Or it would be like trying to break an egg in your hand without striking it in a spot or focusing energy in one spot.
    And in order to dislocate their arm they have to be able to move their arm to the point beyond the joint allows.
    If you have someone controlled by their limbs. Not much they can do.

    There you go!
    Once again doesn't matter. She couldn't move anyways. So it was fully up to my decision on what happened further. Since I had the control. She could suddenly go mad and lose all reasoning. Wouldn't matter since her body is physically being controlled by the limbs.


    From what you've been telling me, that woman put up a little more of a fight than your girlfriend did. After all, she likes you (I hope for your sake).

    I highly doubt it.... There was just nothing she could do once I got ahold of her limbs(Which doesn't take much effort)
    Unless she can break my grip. Which I'm stronger.
    ANd unless she can lift my resistance plus my weight with her body without using her arms.(Which would be almost inhuman without some kind of leverage)

    There's not much she can do besides lie there.
    If you want to prove differently.
    Please inform me... if your arms and legs are pinned and you're belly to belly. What are they going to do if they're not strong enough or trained in breaking holds or pins?
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2009
  6. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    Why do you lie to me, Jeebs? I hate it when you lie.

    All martial arts training is about picking and choosing between various limitations. I'm aware of mine. More people should be.

    May I ask what weapon you're able to legally carry?

    To begin with, I'm not a cop, and I don't live in the same country as you.

    Yesterday me and my colleague had to wait three hours for the police to arrive, whereas another college had a full-on combat situation on his hands when a juiced-up guy attempted to free his sister and her son who had been busted. It ended with a food store in a huge mess, one person being knocked out, one person suffering a concussion (my colleague, from what I've understood) and several old ladies being knocked to the ground.

    No, in that case I would be talking about sniper rifles.

    Say hello to her from me.

    With someone increasing the level of resistance, I have to increase the level of force applied. That can have some painful consequences.

    I call BS on this one. There is no such thing as absolute control.

    Again - no such thing as absolute control.

    Squirm like all hell, and that goes a long way.
     
  7. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    Well I am here about keeping my family safe from harm. Part of that is keeping myself safe from harm. Part of that is violence if I need it. And part of that is being able to take care of my family and not have them take care of me if I end up like Ali.

    So rather than defeating someone like Ali, I have to give priority to keeping myself safe. So I would not do a technique that would open myself up to trouble and I have to keep things like turning and running if given the chance. I am not here to defeat the other guy, just stop him from defeating me. Go read the stuff by Miller if you have not already.


    Take a look at this blog. Now are you so willing to jump in and defeat someone on the assumption that they do not have a knife? If you acknowledge that you will not know he has one until it is sticking out of your chest, then you might do techniques that allow you to free up your hands, etc more even if those moves lessen your chances of defeating the other guy.

    But you parrot the old line about how we have to be able to defeat one unarmed guy before we can worry about multiple opponents or weapons.

    You miss the point, as usual. You really can't see what people who have been your age see in you because they were there themselves. You are not about self defense, you are there to prove you are an alpha male to your girlfriend and others. You choose to do it in limited circumstances that are safe, but are not true indicators of reality.

    Surviving and fighting are two separate things. You are thinking about fighting to an extent that you would gleefully end up like Ali is if you could do as well as he did in the ring. That is totally counter to the philosophy of the Bujinkan I know.
     
  8. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    Well I am here about keeping my family safe from harm. Part of that is keeping myself safe from harm. Part of that is violence if I need it. And part of that is being able to take care of my family and not have them take care of me if I end up like Ali.

    So rather than defeating someone like Ali, I have to give priority to keeping myself safe. So I would not do a technique that would open myself up to trouble and I have to keep things like turning and running if given the chance. I am not here to defeat the other guy, just stop him from defeating me. Go read the stuff by Miller if you have not already.


    Take a look at this blog. Now are you so willing to jump in and defeat someone on the assumption that they do not have a knife? If you acknowledge that you will not know he has one until it is sticking out of your chest, then you might do techniques that allow you to free up your hands, etc more even if those moves lessen your chances of defeating the other guy.

    But you parrot the old line about how we have to be able to defeat one unarmed guy before we can worry about multiple opponents or weapons.

    You miss the point, as usual. You really can't see what people who have been your age see in you because they were there themselves. You are not about self defense, you are there to prove you are an alpha male to your girlfriend and others. You choose to do it in limited circumstances that are safe, but are not true indicators of reality.

    Surviving and fighting are two separate things. You are thinking about fighting to an extent that you would gleefully end up like Ali is if you could do as well as he did in the ring. That is totally counter to the philosophy of the Bujinkan I know.


    Well i'm about protecting those who cannot protect themselves.
    If your only concern is of yourself and your family. Well that's your own priorities.
    It's your own worldview.
    My point is.... Ali has a pressure tested form of combat that works. Which is why he is able to knock people out.
    There's some things that no form of martial arts can take care of.
    Even your little "Avoid" philosophy.
    If you decide to go grocery store shopping. And someone comes shooting up with a fully automatic assault rifle. You can avoid all you want, your life is pretty much in his hands.

    So all that aside..... I'm only worried about what works in actual combat. To have a form of combat that works and increases my chances of surviving in combat.
    Surviving and fighting are two exclusive terms.
    But sometimes you have to FIGHT to survive.
    What happens when you cannot fight?
    You won't survive.
    Sure he can pull a gun out and blow your head off. We're not concerned about all that.

    What if it's just a mere scrap that turns out to become violent. Because "homeboy" didn't like the way you're dressed in that part of town. You won't even be able to fight this unarmed man to make it home safely. And end up getting put in the hospital?
    What? Are you going to say you'll run?
    Well just a little while ago in another thread you just said you're not very athletic. So what if he runs you down tackles you. What next?
    See if oyu knew how to do ACTUAL combat. You'd survive this situation.

    Once again i'm not saying you'll be able to survive all situations by knowing how to fight. But knowing how to fight can help.
    If you can't defeat one unarmed guy.
    I highly doubt your'e going to defeat someone with a knife or multiple opponents.

    You can give me theories all day.
    You'll rarely run into someone who will have a hidden knife.
    They'll bring it out before the fight even starts. I've actually been in a knife vs unarmed combat situation.
    And just like I said. He brought it out before the fight even started.
    So no I didn't just charge him. I waited at the right second to quickly react to control the arm with a knife. And then disarm by attacking the joint.

    I don't care about age... I care about facts.
    Facts don't change due to your age.
    You're right..... I'm not about "Just self defense"
    If i wanted a Self defense I would follow a type of "do"
     
  9. Devil Hanzo

    Devil Hanzo Doesn't tap to heel-hooks

    Kuro. I'd really like it if you could read Meditations on Violence by Rory Miller. I'm interested to hear your opinions on this same topic after having gained the insight Rory shares in his book. I speak as an MMA/BJJ aka "sport fighter", who is also more concerned about self-defense than I am about having a good pro-fighting record.

    I'm merely making a suggestion because I know fully where you're coming from, and if you take anything away from this thread at least read that book. This isn't an attempt to change your opinions, it's just a chance to broaden your perspectives a little.
     
  10. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    Ah, the certainty of the ignorant.

    Aside from the book Devil Hanzo is recommending, you should read my blog and the section on it from Kelly McMann's book.

    You'll be a lot wiser, but a lot less certain than you are now about what you will face.
     
  11. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    I appreciate the recommendations.
    But Rory Miller and Kelly McManns are human beings.
    They're giving their own synopsis from their experiences.

    I am doing the same. I've studied people.
    I've studied street fights.
    And I have formed a synopsis myself that has worked.

    And it's not being certain for no reason... so it's not ignorance.
    It's evidence. Statistically the chances of you getting attacked with a knife out of the thousands of brawls that break out a day is very low. Not to mention I carry a weapon myself.(You seem to forget this).

    And I know myself that I wouldn't even wait to the last minute(While we're engaging) to use it for some kinda surprise attack.
    If I was going to use it... I would use it before I even started attacking.
    And in reality that's how it usually happens. Unless someone was trying to kill you with a sneak attacked you to begin with. And the modus operandi behind this would be premeditated.
    Things like these situations you really can't help. Even with training, besides having a quick reaction.
    These really aren't fights when they happen like this. This was a planned assassination.
    So I highly doubt you'd be charging them in the first place TO get stabbed. Because you wouldn't even expect it coming nor would you even know to have your guard up. Nor would you even know they're there to kill you.
     
  12. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    I call BS on this one. There is no such thing as absolute control.



    Again - no such thing as absolute control.



    Squirm like all hell, and that goes a long way.


    You obviously don't have much on the ground training in martial arts.

    Being belly to bell helps to prevent squirming.
    When you control their limbs, and they aren't trained to know how to break grasp. Then they're stuck like that until you decide to let them get up.

    This is pointless, because you don't understand how anything works in real life.
    You just bring up some random situation and think it's inevitable due to your own knowledge. When in reality it's an easily controllable situation if YOU just had the skills and training.



    With someone increasing the level of resistance, I have to increase the level of force applied. That can have some painful consequences.

    If the level of force applied to your limbs has you completely pinned... with the ADDED force of gravity. You're not going to be moving your limbs. They're just going to either stretch you out how they want. Unless you know how to break grasp. Or you're stronger.

    And if the woman is stronger than you.
    I suggest you hit the gym immediately.



    Yesterday me and my colleague had to wait three hours for the police to arrive, whereas another college had a full-on combat situation on his hands when a juiced-up guy attempted to free his sister and her son who had been busted. It ended with a food store in a huge mess, one person being knocked out, one person suffering a concussion (my colleague, from what I've understood) and several old ladies being knocked to the ground.

    And how does this have any relevance and what point are you trying to make with this?
     
  13. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    Youngling, if you don't get killed by a mugger, you will be raped in the prison showers with a strategy like that. Seriously, you need to get a lawyer on retainer with an attitude you just gave. Talk to him and see how he reacts to your comments.

    You missed the important points- criminals are getting very, very good at hiding weapons and pulling them out after a brawl is started.

    If you pull out a weapon before you see theirs, you are legally in the wrong. If you assume you will see the knife and choose to either do unarmed or armed type of defenses you will end up dead if he uses something like the jackknife on you.

    You might also not know that knife attacks were getting so common in the UK they banned the carrying of knives- which of course has not done much to stop people from carrying them anyways. Since trends rarely stay in one country, I think the chances are that you might see a knife- especially if you avoid social violence and deal mainly with criminal violence.
     
  14. Kuroshinobi

    Kuroshinobi Banned Banned

    Youngling, if you don't get killed by a mugger, you will be raped in the prison showers with a strategy like that. Seriously, you need to get a lawyer on retainer with an attitude you just gave. Talk to him and see how he reacts to your comments.

    You missed the important points- criminals are getting very, very good at hiding weapons and pulling them out after a brawl is started.

    If you pull out a weapon before you see theirs, you are legally in the wrong. If you assume you will see the knife and choose to either do unarmed or armed type of defenses you will end up dead if he uses something like the jackknife on you.

    You might also not know that knife attacks were getting so common in the UK they banned the carrying of knives- which of course has not done much to stop people from carrying them anyways. Since trends rarely stay in one country, I think the chances are that you might see a knife- especially if you avoid social violence and deal mainly with criminal violence.



    Sure... Because just about ALL brawls i've seen where a weapon is present. They pull it out BEFORE they fight.

    The only time a CRIMINAL conceals a weapon is when you're not even looking to fight.
    Not in a brawl.
    If BOTH parties know they're about to fight and engage. The person who has the weapon will draw it.

    If the criminal isn't looking for a fight, but a quick kill or serious injure. THEN they can conceal the weapon to the last second to strike you before you have time to defend yourself. Because you weren't expecting them to attack you in the first place.

    Once again

    If it's going to be a brawl or face to face fighting. The person will bring the knife out BEFORE the fight even stars.


    if it's NOT a fight. And the criminal is just looking for someone to rob. They'll approach you calmly and then reveal the knife at the last second to strike.
    Kinda like in the knife myth video I posted.
    Notice how the police officer searching the guy was NOT brawling with him.
    ANd at the last second the guy pulls out the knife for a quick strike and kill.

    Now if the police officer said... Oh ok come outside lets fight. I'm pretty sure the person would've pulled the knife BEFORE they even engaged and would most likely lunge for an attack like ALL the KNIFE footage in the video.

    Same with the guy inside the train.
    He stood there calmly with a knife hidden behind his back in his hand. And waited for the person to come onto the train to stab him.

    Now if they guy KNEW he was there for trouble and there was about to be a fight.
    The guy would most likely DRAW OUT the knife before the fight even engaged.

    I have yet to see ANYONE(But yet you keep making it a probability) pull out a knife DURING a fight.
    Because they'd have to drop guard and risk getting seriously injured.
    Not to mention someone could see you reaching for a knife and then quickly grab hold of your arm containing the knife.
    It's just a STUPID way in the first place.

    I myself would only draw my weapon if I knew the other guy had a weapon or there was multiple attackers.


    If you pull out a weapon before you see theirs, you are legally in the wrong.

    < Not if they're the one starting the attack. Then it's just defense.
    That's why women carry sprays and tazers.
    Yet when they use them against unarmed attackers, they don't get arrested.
     
  15. stephenk

    stephenk Valued Member

  16. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I have personally seen a brawl where a concealed blade was used, in this case a razorblade. In fact it was only after the short altercation that anyone realised it had been used.

    Mitch
     
  17. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Kuoroshinobi posted

    <
    I guess your not in the UK

    Garth
     
  18. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    I have experience in holding people down on the ground. Sometimes successful, sometimes not, But *NEVER* as easy as you make it sound.

    And again - there is no such thing as absolute control. A wildly panicking human being who refuses to give up is a very hard creature to stop - no matter how much training you've had.

    Why do you lie to me, Jeebs? I hate it when you lie.

    Only idiots and drunkards give themselves more than 50 percent probability of success all the time.

    See here's the thing. You can restrain someone's arms, you can restrain someone's legs, you can restrain someone's head - but it is nigh-on impossible to keep someone from moving his hips. That is a big part of the secret towards escaping locks and pins. I think you'd know that if you'd had more training yourself.

    That you're trying to teach me how to do my job, and I don't appreciate it.
     
  19. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    Oh my sweet Cuthulu!

    I know StephenK pointed out that we should not feed trolls like you. And I know that you have totally missed what I said about the concealing of a knife, but I can't let this go because others might actually follow it.

    Listen youngling, you need to go get a lawyer on retainer now. Unless you actually want your cell mate to sell you for cigarettes you need to actually know the law instead of bleating what you want it to be.

    Check any location where sprays and tazers are legal. Check to see what they are considered. Most places use terms like "less-than-lethal" to describe them.

    What are knives and guns considered? Answer Lethal weapons. And in just about every place I know of, you can't bring them out unless you can show a clear and present danger to your life or others. You can't use them to try to wound, or anything like that. You have to be able to show the nice officers that you thought the only way you might be able to walk away alive was to possibly kill the other guy.

    Don't take my word for it, get some serious legal advice from a lawyer you put on retainer. Trust me, your hormones are going to get you thrown behind bars and that is the worst place to start looking for a good lawyer.
     
  20. Devil Hanzo

    Devil Hanzo Doesn't tap to heel-hooks

    One time when I was arrested [there's been many], as I was being driven to the ACI in the back of the police car, I decided to pick the cop's brain a bit. I asked him what a kubotan was considered.

    This is what I was referring to, as I had this on my keychain [not when I was arrested]:
    [​IMG]

    He told me a nice officer would just confiscate it, if you were lucky. More than likely they would take it as possession and arrest you. I asked about tazers and pepper spray, and he said the same thing. I then asked if the rules applied to women, and he said no one's going to arrest a female for carrying self-defense items. I said that was stupid; he disagreed, and went on about how men can settle their differences with their fists if they have to, women need an equalizer because they're "physically inferior". This is from a police officer.

    The only way you'd be able to pull a knife on an unarmed person and get away with it is if that unarmed person is Brock Lesnar.

    I think it'd do you a bit of good to read up on Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy, and Preclusion. If you don't know what those are, then you really don't deserve the right to give your opinion on self-defense.

    EDIT: I should mention this too as I feel it's also applicable to this discussion. When I was 16 I sliced a guy's eye up bad with a spiked bracelet on my wrist. He was about 27 250lbs, I was like 130lbs. Sent him to the hospital, eye isn't there anymore. He was shoving me into a car after I intervened to stop him from harassing these young girls. I punched him in the face, apparently sloppily, because I didn't even know my bracelet had hit him. What happened to me after allegedly "defending myself against a larger attacker"? Felony assault with a deadly weapon. If I was 18 I would have been locked up for awhile. Maybe your experience isn't as reliable as you originally thought.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2009

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