Critical opinion required please

I have spent almost 1.5 years in the Bujinkan...I believed the hype just like everybody else...until I decided to put my "skills" to the test. Funny how I was regarded as one of the better practitioners in my Buj dojo....but got utterly schooled by a judo go-kyu the fateful day I first stepped into a judo club.

Yes...I had previously used my Taijutsu in "real life"...and thought that was vindication of the Booj training methods. Not until I started Judo and Boxing did I realize that if these "confrontations" where anything serious, I would have been in real trouble. It all boiled down to experience and being able to adapt on the fly. You get that with live training with full resistance...period.

So in short...I know how the org works because I was once a part of it. The general philosophy of the org is that it somehow teaches you to be street ready with out doing any of the hard work of, you know, FIGHTING.

A better question to ask your self is how do you know what you are being taught works without pressure testing it? You are sorta betting your life on this ya'know?

 

1. So you're a white belt in BJJ. Ok, me too. You ignored pretty much my whole post by the sounds of it.
2. You're a Judoka - ok, great. Me too!
3. I've been training for over 5 years too!
4. Me too! wow - this is getting wierd.
5. I have a dan grade in the Bujinkan. Nice to meet you.
6. Me too! wow, this is just wierd now.
7. You still think that Judo - a gi based grappling system where you cannot punch, kick, use weapons or have friends around is everything you need. It's a piece of the Pie (I stole that.)

8. Are you challenging everyone on MAP to a Judo match, a BJJ match, a boxing match, a no holds barred fight, a stick fight? a knife fight? a street fight? A gun duel? Please clarify. Did you puff out your chest when you wrote that?

I'd probably ignore you. We probably wouldn't be in the same social circles, regardless of our mutual love of grappling.

That's your opinion. Even people with very low level social skills who collect trash have one.

What exactly is your experience in the Bujinkan? Who did you train with?

Please let me know how it is demonstratable? I'd really like to know.

Superior training methods for what exactly? If my goal is to win a 1vs1 match with controlled conditions, i'd up my Judo, attend freestyle wrestling more and start Muai Thai. That's not my goal. I do enjoy sparring at Judo though.

Two words: 1. Jack. 2. Hoban. The guy is a freakin Marine Corps Martial Arts Programme Subject Matter Expert. He's one of the most senior western Bujinkan teachers in the organisation and someone I have personally trained with. He thinks the Bujinkan is good for self defence, I'll take his word over yours.

By the way, to the rest of the Bujinkan community. I'm not suggesting you need to do Judo or BJJ to be good. The Bujinkan is good in itself. I just like to compete and test myself and i've learned quite a few things from Judo. I think everyone should try it for a few sessions to see how you get on.

 

Nowhere near enough time. And Decision Tree, check your inbox please.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdwPYuC5Y4k"]YouTube - Public Enemy - Don't Believe The Hype[/ame]

 

So, you you have evidence that Judo (or whatever) has a high rate of success in a specific range of competitions. Excepted, I think, by all.

However, you need to provide an argument as to why this success is an indicator of success on 'the street'.

To do this you either have to rely on anecdotes, just as many Bujinkan students do, or you have to provide a logical coherent argument that is accepted as to why this is the case.

"It's obvious" is not acceptable. Because the argument can't be justified 'by inspection' unless you also are stating that everyone in the Bujinkan is an idiot.

While, to be honest, I think this is exactly the argument assumed by many in this discussion - it, as well, is justified by anecdotes rather than data.

Round and round it goes.


The parts of the forums I find interesting are the arguments that tie the propositions together since it's clear to me that the 'final answers' people give (such as 'Bujinkan sucks' or 'BJJ is gay' or 'Wing Chun rules') are usually rubbish founded on anecdote or prejudice.

It's much more interesting to me to discuss and discover that, for example, the Bujinkan focus on henka and change has analogues, in the macro level, in military theory from Sun Tsu to Rommel to the US Marine Corps Warfighting document. Seeing also that there are similarities on other level in fields such as evolution, psychology, and statistics might lead me to believe that there's a common thread that might cause me to construct an logical argument (without appealing to anecdote) about why I might want to train in the Bujinkan rather than <*insert-precise-rote-repetition-kata-driven-art here*>.

The nice thing about this approach is that even though at the end my argument may not be accepted, I will have learned a great deal about those subject's possible intersections with training and also will be able to refine my argument, and therefore learn, with the help of the internet's many sets of eyes.

Can't do that with 'UR teh SUxxOR - LOLZ!!!!eleventy!!!1111!!!'.

(Really, if the answer was that easy we wouldn't be talking about it. There would only be one martial art by now.)

 

Smuerf,

Just wanted to clarify if you don't mind.

You spent just over a year in the Bujinkan then went to a Judo dojo took part in Judo randori and didn't do very well at Judo. From that you decided the Bujinkan sucked at everything and left?

Is that right?

Cheers

 

1. uhmmm what are you talking about ?
a. I just told you don't rank in BJJ
b. I never claimed rank in BJJ so what are you babbling about ?
c. Only the inexperienced would equate the rank of Ikkyu with a BJJ
whitebelt. After you have spent ~5 years frequently competing
and rolling with BJJ blue/purple/brown/BB, wrestlers, etc
I want you to comeback and tell me with a straight face that your
ridiculous equivalence holds. You do realize that an Ikkyu is basically
is basically a Shodan who has yet to prove he deserves to be a shodan
right? Oh...that's right..only someone who actually knows what they
are talking about would realize this.
d. Dude...please specify where and when I made the claim that Judo
covers all ranges of combat...oh, that's right...I didnt
[/QUOTE]

Dont' be obtuse.

...nobody cares....

Christopher Davey. He sucks. As does the Bujinkan as a whole.

You seem to be preoccupied with social standing. I don't see how this furthers your case.

Video is a standard these days.

You do realize that this really hurts your case more than supports it? The Marine Corps is in no way a standard to measure the proficiency of any MA.
Bullshido has entire threads about this...go there and read them...you will quickly find that Hoban being some Marine Corps SME doesnt mean spit.

Better yet, start a thread over on Bullshido about how Jack Hoban being an SME for Marine Corps combat methods proves that the Buj is legit. Remember that Bullshido prides itself on verification, and logic. Remember to wear something flame retardant.

[/quote]

1.This is poor advice.
2. Entering a Shiai is competing. Being part of a Boxing/Kickboxing/MMA bout is competing....dabbling in Judo is NOT COMPETING.

Just so we are clear....

 

With 1.5 years of Booj training I got my backside handed to me by a Judo beginner with less than 6 months of training in the range of grappling(both standing and on the ground). It wouldnt have mattered if it were wrestlers, BJJ, or Sambo players. The bottom line is that the Booj did not deliver, even thought the tag line is "what we do is for survival". The booj is supposed to be a super-set of skills in comparison...but fell terribly short.

If you don't believe what I am saying do what I tell everybody to do. Go to your local sportive grappling club. See how well you do. Try some of your "dirty" tricks....all it will do is make them madder. It will not end well for you.

 

That, however, is based on the assumption that you know the system.

You mean your own personal taijutsu skills fell short.

HEAR YE! HEAR YE!

I propose a new variety of Godwin's Law. It shall be known as "Kagete's Rule Of Dirty Trick Argumentation" - unless someone else would prefer to have the honor. In any case, the rule is simple - the moment anyone infers that the only thing separating non-competitive martial arts such as Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu from their sports counterparts are dirty tricks such as biting, eye gouging, fishhooking, pinching and the like, he/she will automatically have lost the debate. No appeals will be accepted.

Who's with me?

 

Smuerf,

You seem to assume that I push the idea that "dirty tricks" are the way to go hmm don't believe I have ever said that. I do feel though that maybe you missed a few things though, I can't recall many of the guys I've trained with claiming you will learn to be able to handle yourself in a short period of time.

Quick question you said your partner was a gokyu yes? Is six months standard to reach that level in Judo? Seems short?

Thanks for the clarification though.

Oh I don't need to seek new found enlightenment at the local sports based club thanks.

 

There is plenty that separates the two....the most glaring is that what you do does not work very well for what its practioners claim they are practicing it for. There are better methods.....but instead of just dropping shoddy practices we get massive threads arguing about issues that have already been put to bed a decade ago.

Like I said before....go put your MA to the test for everyone to see....that will lay all this nonsense to rest....however this never seems to happen. I wonder why ?

 

The mere fact that you phrase yourself this way goes to show that you are woefully ignorant of what we actually do, and why.

 

You just posted a bunch of absolute nothing. Nothing in the quote above changes the fact that the Buj has NOTHING to verify or support its claims of effectiveness w/r to combat/SD. NOTHING. At the very least Sports oriented MA have verifiable, and continuous pressure testing.......I wont even go into the verified and very violent histories of sports oriented MA that made them what they are today....

Do you understand? You have NOTHING besides stories of what Takamatsu supposedly did.

 

Indeed....
Things that suck certainly are not for me...they may be for you...but that is not the point now is it ?

Not my mission...however I do have a terribly low tolerance for garbage being passed off as anything but. If you want to fool yourself then go right ahead...however keep in mind that spreading this nonsense can get someone hurt do to false confidence. And yes...you are wrong....and you DONT know what you are talking about.

Since we are passing out suggestions...I suggest you leave the pontification of what is and is not effective traning methods w/r to fighting to people who actually fight....

1. Fixed
2. 1.5 years is more than enough. You would know this if you had a clue of what you were talking about.
3.This is what none of you get. It aint about Judo. It is about practicing what works...not theorizing about it. Like I posted earlier....I would put my money on a kid who slap-boxes his peers in the school yard over a Booj Shihan....instead of the usual knee jerk reaction...think about why I would say that......what exactly is that child doing that the average Boojer isn't isn't ?

 

So is six months to get gokyu standard in Judo?
Just wondering.

Edit: ah gradings start a sixth?

 

Ah, youngling I see why you want to take the position you have.

But Ali never defended his family. He never even had to defend his own self against someone who wanted to kill him.

Doesn't matter... That's irrelevant to the fact that Mohammed ali has a proven effective style. That knocks out opponents who are trying to knock him out. We're talking about martial arts effectiveness. Not defending your family.
If you want to defend your family and against someone who wants to kill you.
It's called
Keep a loaded 12gauge in your closet.

This is the problem with what you're saying. I'll put it in CAPS so you can understand.
YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IF YOU CAN DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST AN UNARMED PERSON... LET ALONE SOMEONE WHO HAS A WEAPON.

And you keep throwing in "Someone who wanted to kill him"
How the hell are you going to kill someone if you're knocked out?
Once you're knocked out it won't take much to go that extra inch to kill you.


When you are young, you want to prove in some way that you are fit for breeding. You want to prove yourself in some combat over others to show the females of the species that you are fit to be a father.

...Do you have mental issues?
I already have a G/F...
And she could careless how well I fight.
I learned martial arts to be able to be effective in combat and survival.


Once you are old enough to be a father, you no longer feel the need to prove yourself against others in some sort of alpha male dominance game. Those that do tend to rationalize and find excuses for their behavior. Guess which camp you seem to fall into?
The camp opposite to someone who is trying to prove their "intelligence" based off their age. Rather than making intelligible arguments.
Right now you're trying to prove your wisdom by throwing "age" in the equation. Aging doesn't always mean becoming more intelligent... If you have a bad base to begin with. It could make you become more close minded and unintelligent.


So getting home alive instead of defeating the other person is the goal of the responsible father figure. Being so out of it as Ali is and unable to take care of your children is far too high a price to pay in the name of status for people like me who have children who still depend on them.


If you can't even defend yourself in an UNARMED combat... And your only tactic is to run. I think i'm better off being able to come home after being in a bad confrontation. When you could easily be chased down and beaten once you find out your techniques don't work for the first time since you never tried them against a resisting opponent trying to defeat you. I rather lose on the mat than on the street.


I have no desire to prove myself superior over other beta males. I only work to make my children's life a better one. Defeating someone else is a distant second to that goal. And ending up like Ali when my children might still depend on me is a nightmare instead of the ideal you still seem to cling to.

That is why Hanzo and others who might disagree with some of the points I often raise think you are either too stupid or being dishonest when you post what you do.

Ali lived his goal and dreams. If it caused him to get injured, that was his own choice. It wasn't his training that did it. It was what he decided to use his training for. Not to prove himself to others, but perhaps to prove himself to himself and doing what he enjoyed doing.
Are you calling are whole entire military a bunch of idiots because they chose an occupation that is HIGH in risk of injury?
I think you have a lot of growing up to do, because you live in a deluded world that if someone does something YOU are too scared to do. They're trying to prove their alpha male dominance over you. Yeah I think you need to throw that little worldview away. Take a breathe of reality. There's tons of reasons why people will do something that risk them of getting injured.
And if my training requires me to get injured in order to know it works. So be it. Atleast I'm getting hurt in a controlled environment versus getting everything handed to me on the street with my fate in their hands.

 

To Anth,

So let me get this straight...I am bordering on trolling.....or just trolling? Which is it

Either I am in violation or not. Either I am trolling or I am not. Dude, enough with the thinly veiled "concern", ban me or not...I don't really care. If vigorously arguing against blatant foolishness is trolling then ban away......

 

Yes...there are exceptions though...I waited a year before testing for go-kyu.

 

That's right, nowhere near enough. Especially not with an organization that spans the entire globe.