Ok, How do you define someone as being the cream of the crop? How do you define the "crop", Is it of that generation, by decade, thoughout their MA career, what? What makes them the cream? Is it solely on physical skill, knowledge of a peticular system/style, or knowledge of MA in general; also do you factor in their "spirit"/ attitude; their skill as a teacher? What factors do you take into account? Personally, I judge someone as being the cream of the crop by several factors; their skill as a MAists; their personal training regime(how they push themselves); their knowledge of MA's and their ability to convey that knowledge to their students/subordinates; what their students are like[not just the BB's but all of their students from yellow belt up]( are they also high quality practitioners); their contributions to the MA that they practice/teach; their etiquette, do they quit or resort to stubborness when things aren't going their way; how they treat others, their personality( good hearted/ desire to help people); their extracurricular accomplishments; how they react to power or influence over people( do they take advantage of that trust); their honesty and integrity. And how long have they been that way, so thoughout their MA career.
Personally I worry about my own ability in these things not who's the cream, I don't care who the cream is, I care if I'm acheiving my ability levels. Martial arts is all about self developement not trying to enforce your own ability by getting some form of displaced greatness. "Standing on shoulders of giants" Anyone who is really interested in who's the best has missed the story. Do these people think wow I'm the cream??? Do they want to be thought of it like that???? or do they just get good because they train hard and don't worry that they are the cream???? Now if they don't care why do we????????? STARS DON'T BRAG, THEY SHINE how many times
Purely personal opinion, *probably* based on my understanding of the desired MA aesthetics. Which is why I prefer not to argue with people over who's best or why. (I do like to tease, though, occasionally.) There's a story I'd been thinking of, about a family that commissioned a painting of a cat, from a famous calligrapher / artist. Years went by, and no painting was forthcoming. Finally the family confronted the artist, and asked where their painting was. The artist pulled out a piece of paper, and immediately painted a picture of a cat. The family asked why they had been left without their painting for so long, when it only took him a minute. In reply, the artist simply opened up his desk, revealling paper after paper after paper of the cats he had painted in the intervening years, the previous attempts that led up to the most recent example. I'm inspired by people who have worked so hard for so long, that the difficult things look easy.
Simply the people that are at their absolute best. Anyone who divides themselves from their peers of the same rank or ability. No one is going to be amazing at everything so there isnt really any point about debating who you think is the best. Nothing subjective is ever worth arguing about.
I knew the same story, but about a crane and a Chinese emperor. The artist was executed before his home was searched and all previous work found.
It's not about who, it's how do people who are below or havent reached that level yet, make that comparison. If we really can. And I'm not trying to shove who I think is is the elite down your throats, I just wanted to know how you make that decision to elevate someone over the rest. Many of you have repeatedly "bragged" about KJN SJS, so how do you put him, or anyone else, above the rest.
I think a lot of that has actually been about the best example of a specific form they have seen demo'd rather than him being the best martial artist. Again subjective and dependant on what you like to see. But not a claim that he is the best. Well particulary amongst the British posters anyway and remember a lot of them have never seen Master Harmon perform at all. I really don't spend time worrying who is the best. You know what you live on a vineyard and you grow up tasting wine then you automatically learn to love the taste of that wine because its what you know. No other wine will ever taste as sweet. Perhaps people need to go try a pint of lager and forget wine altogether then decide if they like it and it is actually the best flavour. Man its all about being the best it seems with you. Its like you really think it proves something to be associated with them. Be thankful you had the opportunity by geography and chance to actually train under them cos I doubt you would have travelled half way round the world to do it and then you would think the Instructor you had trained under instead was the best, its just how it works I'm afraid. You know what I'll let you into a secret, since your postings have started on map a few of us here in Britain have come up with a whole new term. Its called "Clearlake Syndrome" and its one of the reasons hardly any of us post, don't worry its not just you but a few from the school that jot in and out, but lets face it, you're most in your face with it. See if you can workout what it is and if you think that its something the "cream" would want associated with their school. :bang:
What a great idea , I think I'll have an ale, in you honor SilentMonk for posting such an insightful and accurate post. As if something might rub off??? Your so right. Maybe if the availability wasn't so covenient things would be different. I can't describe how much more I enjoyed MAP when you UK guys were posting more frequently. Even I have posted less and for the essentially same reasons. Other than that I can't seem to add anything more meaningful to this thread. And I am not sure anyone else can. CHEERS
Silentmonk, no longer silent: I'm sorry to tell you that the term is not original with you. I've been hearing about it for years. I'm still not sure exactly what it means, and indeed, it might mean something different to everyone who uses it or hears it. I do like your analogy, though. I'm afraid it is more than just learning to like wine over beer, never having had beer, but rather learning to like a particular grape, grown in a certain region, harvested on a certain day, aged in wooden barrels made of a certain type of wood, bottled in a certain color and shape of bottle. Every single element offers a change, one is better is some opinions, most people probably can't tell a difference. I know someone who likes the apples grown in a certain orchard. I should try those apples sometime, but I doubt I coudl tell the difference. A wine connoisseur would want to try other vineyard's wines, as I'm sure people would jump at the chance to train under/with just about any other instructor. One can learn from anyone, even a new white belt, and I'm sure that any of the people mentioned have a lot to share and big hearts to go with their skills. I don't think anyone should read too much into this thread. I believe it was an attempt to bring some levity to the discussion. People had different opinions about who was or was not cream, or THE cream. This was just an attempt to be positive. Rather than talk about whether a person is or is not cream, just who IS cream, or the best, or cream of the crop. A little cheerleading. Hwarang_cl did have a nice list about what makes a person good. Thing is, we never can tell what a person is overcoming to train. We can't see their injuries, we can't read their hearts. It doesn't work when we try to compare our insides to their outsides. Knowing which side your bread is buttered on and knowing that other people's bread and butter is good too, are not mutually exclusive. Personally, I wouldn't presume to say one master was better than another. I would need to train under/with ALL of them for equal periods. Not first degree here, second degree there, third degree there; but a season here, a season there, next season over there, to try to equalize the variable of my own development. I'll get back to you ten years after I start this program. We all need more practice, and while some may need more than others, we all need our own. Isn't there a thread for "What we learned from our instructors"? Well, there is one for you. Welcome back, Silentmonk. I hope you keep posting, and feel free to drag back all your homies too.
I define "master" as "so far ahead from me" so, naturally, certain definitions are kind of fuzzy. Anyway, right now, I could probably learn as much from PSBN Velasco, KJN Harmon (both; remember there's a "second" one?), KJN Simms or even KSN. If I ever get good enough, this might change, but right now, there's so much to cover...
The beauty of MA is that it's a personal journey. The crop would have to be defined as solely the indiviual that practices the art. If that individual strives to push themselves and become the best that they can be in their training I'd say they're at the top of their game, therefore making them the cream.
It is really hard to tell when someone else is working as hard as they can. Everyone wants to feel better than someone else. <sigh> We all have our own strengths and weaknesses. coc716: TY.
You're right about that, but they know if they're working as hard as they can. That's what matters. Yea, it's a shame Jerry Springer isn't on the air as much anymore. It was a great way to get the daily dose of downward comparison. It's nice to be able to say, "Hey, life's not that bad! I could be dating a trailor trash stripper who's sleeping with my brother and dad!"
I think some of you take this WAY to seriously! What makes you the cream of the crop, is being better than everyone else. Its pretty obvious!!!!!!!!!!! For example Michael Jordan Why was he the cream of the crop? Cause he was better than everyone else! nick
Funny, Vernon Maxwell of the Houston Rockets consistently shut down Michael Jordan. I'd have to agree that There's always someone bigger and badder out there.
I love reading the old threads! I have to echo what's been said before. It's realy not important how I define it, or who I consider to be the cream of the crop. What am I doing? What effort am I putting in? I have had instructors that pushed me and helped me find out things about myself that I might not have discovered with out their help..at least not at that time. To me that's what matters...and not what belt they wear, how many years they have practiced, or what accolades they've been given. I wont embarrass some of the guys on here that I have worked with...or will I. But I have utmost respect and admiration for their teaching ability, their skill, and total gratitude for what they have helped me to learn. I'm just one student, and even if I was the only one who felt that..what would it matter, but to me.
Mmmm... Oliver Winery, and I didn't even grow up on it... That's how I see it. I think my school and teachers are the best, but I fully expect COC to feel the same way about HIS school and teachers, and so on for each of the rest of you. Grrr... I'll stick to soda for this toast. Italy and France with no wine or soft cheese? And I thought no sushi in Korea was bad...
Actually I don't think my school and teacher(s) are best. I think they're very good, I'm very happy to be at the school I'm at and have no reason nor desire to change schools, style, instructor, or anything. But I know there's always someone better, a better school, a better instructor; the world's a big place. It's why I really like to learn from as many people as I can. I'd jump at the chance to train with the UK Kuk Sool folk, because after seeing videos on what they do I know I could learn a lot from them. Heck, after I bought KJN Sims DVD's I had a chance to speak with him on the phone and that 30 minutes was one of the most informative (and funny) conversations I've had about martial arts in my whole life. But I do understand the argument you're going with here, Ember, and grant it, because we're all biased towards what we know and what we're loyal to. I do think SBN Perry is amongst the cream of the crop, as is South Austin Kuk Sool Won. I mean, look at what school came in 1st place in the World Tournament the past some years. Who needs sushi in Korea when you have all the gim bap you can eat! Mmmmm...... :love: Gim bap....
Me too, though I'd prefer it to be at a time when I could work on my acrobatics. I may be in London in May. Remind me what gim bap is? My Korea travel guide is sitting in Texas.
