Could Martial Arts be detrimental?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Judderman, Jun 28, 2010.

  1. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    There is an assumption by the courts that professionals (LEOs, HMPS, Door Supervisors etc) are better equiped to cope with aggressive and confrontational situations than the average member of the public.

    Question is, do you think this is detrimental to such professionals in a court of law when answering a case of self defence?

    Could such an assumption be opened to those who train in martial arts?

  2. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    First rule of fight club
  3. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Courts do not provide justice. Rather they provide an opportunity for justice.

    I say this to underscore that courts are much like any other agency. They are made up of human beings who have frailties. In the matter of making assumptions about the competence, experience and judgment of a MA practitioner (professional or not) courts can conclude anything they choose to. IME the courts may or may not understand what a MA is, what constitutes an accomplished practitioner and what mitigating circumstances can revolve around the matter of conflict resolution involving people who are (and are not) trained in a MA.

    I think there are institutions such as Law and Medicine that we humans tend to put up on pedestals, whether its deserved or not. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

  4. Jaybee

    Jaybee Valued Member

    A good Lawyer (if there is any such thing ;) ) will easily show the court that doormen and the like simply have more experience of dealing with confrontation. This does not mean that they too don't have their off days, that they never give a thought to taking some obnoxious ***** and giving him a kicking around the back of the nightclub, then dumping him in a cab. I have actually SEEN this happen, and although it doesn't taint my view of their occupation in general, it only serves to remind me that bad apples exist in every walk of life.
  5. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, JayBee. For myself, I could almost go another step and say that anyone in security of any sort---be it military or para-military-- can have their "off-days" or be pressed to the frosty edge by circumstances. I don't necessarily call these folks "bad apples", though, as you say, each line of work has their share. Rather, I think more in terms of "burn-out", fatigue, extended hours of boredom with anticipation of unpredictable moments of emergency or stress. Back in the "Dark Ages" I bartended in a rank little place where military folks came to mix with the civilians. There were the usual antics in the parking lot that often spilled into the establishment. Most were pretty benign, but now and again there was the idiot who wanted to make his problems everyone else's problem and these could escalate in a number of ways at a moment's notice. I had a lot of respect for the fellas who stopped much of the crap at the door before it ever got inside. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

  6. Jaybee

    Jaybee Valued Member

    It is indeed usually the pokier, cheaper places where military types drink. One doesn't go into soldiering for the pay and indeed one of my own principles is to avoid cheaper bars as you are simply likelier, statistically, to get into an altercation with people whose primary motivation is violence, not money.

    No, I'll happily pay another 50% for my jollies and rub shoulders with the wine-guzzlers. Unless it's white wine....I only use that stuff to fill the reservoir for my car wipers!!
  7. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned THAT what that stuff is for! I knew it wasn't for human consumption but couldn't quite figure it out.:cool:

    Its important to know the purpose for things. After all, as any good drinker will tell you, Gawd willed the existence of Small-Batch Bourbons for only the very special among us. Everyone else has to settle for Heaven. :cool:

    Best Wishes,

  8. Jaybee

    Jaybee Valued Member

    Yep, hard to beat a bottle of **** Creek. Though, if you want a taste of aforementioned paradise and don't mind going Scottish, I suggest trying Johnnie Walker's limited edition Black Label, an absolute pain in the tuches to get hold of without some snooty wine merchant raping you on his counter, but imho even better than it's flagship Blue Label which weighs in at 4x the price. The street-standard Black Label is also very nice, though it won't do anything for your whiskey-cred.

    I tried once Maker's Mark on a recommendation...didn't really think much of it. Palatable, I know, but I wouldn't pay money for it. Possibly the WORST bourbon (or whisky in general) I ever tasted was JD...pretty much goes to removing those hardiest stains off my radials!
  9. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Totally agree about **** Creek and Makers Mark... respectively they are the best and the most overrated bourbons I've ever had.
  10. Ranzan

    Ranzan Valued Member

    The legal system(at least the American one) is completely FUBAR, it is not about justice it is just about finding loopholes. Murderers, rapists, child molesters get off all the time because of BS loopholes. I hate the legal system.
  11. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    When I realized that Bourbon was my drink I started with MAKERS MARK and went to **** CREEK and then to BOOKERS and then to BAKERS. In my VERY HUMBLE opinion, the top of the line is BASIL HAYDENS which I find a sheer joy to nurse a sip at a time-- neat.

    BTW: I have never found a Scotch that smooth by I continually hear rumors that such fine products exist. So far I have only tried single malt and may have to simply own that Scotch is not my cuppa.

    Best Wishes,

  12. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Fights happen at all kinds of bars, and outside of bars as well. If you are affraid you are going to get drunk and get into an altercation, then you should consider drinking less.
  13. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I've never had Basil Haydens. And of course any decent whiskey should be drunk neat. Putting a mixer in a good whiskey is idiotic - might as well use Jack Daniels instead.

    Scotch whiskies by their nature aren't as smooth as, say bourbon or Irish whiskies. Which isn't a flaw, they are simply a different beast. A really smooth Irish whiskey like Powers is an absolute delight, but so is a big smokey Islay malt - just in a different kind of way.

    If smoothness is your main concern then you could try a really good blended Scotch like The Baillie Nichol Jarvie. The smoothest single malts I've had would probably be Aberlour, Highland Park or Tamnavulin (although I don't think they still make the last one) but they still won't be as smooth as a good Bourbon or Irish whiskey. But what single malts have in abundance is individual flavours and character, which is what often gets lost with other types of whiskey.
  14. Jaybee

    Jaybee Valued Member

    Actually, no I'm not and therefore no I shouldn't, respectively, though an argument can be made that we should ALL reduce our consumption of alcohol.

    Anyone in the drinks trade in particular, or the entertainment business in general, will tell you that cheaper outlets attract rougher crowds. I don't have to drink with such crowds, so naturally I don't. Thanks for your input, though.
  15. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    That doesn't ring true at all.

    In my experience the most fights tend to be in the pubs and clubs where you get a lot of young men 'on the pull'. They brimful of testosterone and once they've drunk more alcohol than they can really handle then something's going to kick off.

    The cheapest pubs these days tend to be Wetherspoon's, and they're usually full of old men.

    The cheapest places of all are usually working men's clubs and social clubs, and they don't usually have any trouble at all.
  16. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Funny, when I was in the drinks trade no one told me that at all.


    /\QFT /\
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2010
  17. Jaybee

    Jaybee Valued Member

    Friend of mine is a higher-upper in WS, most of my recent advice on the matter stems from him, and my recent experience from driving past the place on Fr/Sat nights/Sunday afternoons. The one closest to me has bench seating in front of it and is HEAVING with young lads during said periods, in traffic I often peer through the doors and they're inside as well as out, so you can't tell me that they're all old blokes.

    Up until 6pm Mo-Th most pubs outside the City/West End will contain a mostly male, mostly 50+ clientele. The later in the day and week, the more the demographics favour the younger and female drinkers. Speaking of the City, that alone makes my point for me perfectly, the assault rate (verbal + physical) from the suits in the Lloyd's bars (their classier segment) is about a quarter of that found in in the remainder of their outlets. Each incident and its details is logged and algorithms run against the gathered data to find patterns and highlight areas for quick-win improvement. This is all from him, he's one of their senior Brand Managers and has absolutely no reason to fib to me (having worked for 8 years in Canary Wharf and Threadneedle st and drunk in dozens of boozy meetings with bankers I'd soon catch him out with my own observations if he did).

    Again, going back to my own experience a local place shut down as their "2 for the price of 1" alcopops sales were pulling in a lot of ruffians from well out of the area. Personally I'm glad they were driven out of business, and I'm an unapologetic NIMBY about it.
  18. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Just to be clear, then. If I am to actually enjoy a good Scotch the "good" is predicated on the sort of individual character, yes? Judging from my choice of Bourbon, seems like I would be seeking a creamy, mildly sweet and a bit of a vanilla cast. I wonder if its possible to actually approach Scotch this way or if it will come down to a whole lot of trial-&-error. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

  19. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    So we're supposed to believe you based on something your friend said and what you see outside of your car window???
  20. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    The two single best experiences I have had in the UK were both on brief visits and both at pubs well away from the city lights. The Brits have a lager which was wonderfully drinkable and put the bitter hops-edged commercial stuff we have here in the States to shame. One of the best experiences was at a Scottish Games held on the grounds at Blair Athol Castle where, after the games, we tumbled on a bit of a "dual" between two pipers, both well in their cups. One of the most memorable evenings I ever had.

    The other experience was on an earlier trip where we had book a tour around the UK and stopped at a small town off the beaten path. The local boasted an author of prominence, but what caught my imagination was a pub where we had lunch and a bit to wash it down. Fabulous stuff, even if not in keeping with this thread. :rolleyes:

    Best Wishes,


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