Core Art vs Multiple Arts

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Gong_Sau_Rick, Feb 15, 2009.

  1. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    Hi, for those of you here on MAP who train in more than one style. Are you training in multiple styles fairly evenly and then intergrating them all into one hybrid method; or do you have an art that you train more than the others that you consider your "core" art on which all your other training builds upon?

    What are your opinions on core art vs hybrid method? Advantages, disadvantages?

    What ratio of time do you commit to your core art and your side training? (e.g. 80%-20%, 60%-40%) What would you recommend? What works best?

    What challenges have you encountered?

    Thanks,

    GSR.
     
  2. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    I've done a fair amount of cross-training in my time, and I'm of the opinion that it's best to learn from as wide a number of sources as possible. As to the ratio of time, that's determined by what class I've got coming up next and what areas of my game seem to be lacking (all of them at the moment!). The challenge I haven't encountered is the widely supposed one of getting confused as to what I'm doing. It just doesn't seem to happen. The main challenge is actually getting to more than 1 martial art a week and convincing the more proprietorial sort of sensei that I'm committed enough to the class. Also, you have to bear in mind that just because you're doing a standup art and a grappling art does NOT mean you have a rounded game. What I'm saying, I suppose, is that the difficulty comes in integrating the different martial arts into a coherent overall approach.
     
  3. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    When you learn from as many sources as possible. Obviously you're restricted by time. How do you know that you've trained enough in one style before moving on?

    As to confusing arts, I think some people can separate arts, other confuse them. Depends on the person.
     
  4. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    It's not necessary to 'move on'. You can stick with styles or styles for as long as you want.
    I don't even think it's a case of that- when you were at primary school, you learned arithmetic and english at the same time. But you didn't start trying to add up letters or spell with numbers (unless you were on the internet....), so why should you confuse, say, judo and karate?
     
  5. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I think training in two arts (1 stand-up & 1 groundwork) to a reasonable level and then adding an MMA session or two into the weekly schedule fills in the gaps and intergrates everything nicely.
    It's a lot of training and the ability to be flexible within that training helps. Sometimes concentrating on the stand-up because you are perhaps fighting or the ground-work for a tourny or grading.
    Don't think of your training a a short term thing think of the next 3 years or even more. Think of how your game will be then after the right training. At 21 time is on your side.
     
  6. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    I understand, but in order to get the widest experience I'll need to drop arts at some point or another since I can train 10 times a week in 5 styles.

    Ok I would have to say this is a false analogy as judo and karate are both types of fighting. Math and English are different activities. But there's really no point in arguing this point.

    My experience has been people have come to my school from other arts and it really conflicts and interferes with what they are learning; and then people with the same amount of experience learn with no apparent interference as if they haven't trained in anything before.

    But back to cross training...
     
  7. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Other arts can get in the way but a cross trainer has made the break from wanting to be the 'best' thai boxer or judo player. It's about being good at all ranges so if you fight you take it out of your opponents comfort zone.
    The sum of the parts is much greater than the seperate arts on their own. That's my take on it.
     
  8. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    Actually mate I'm currently taking a core art + side arts approach. Sorry should have made myself clear from the start. If you think that there's problems with that approach or that a hybrid system is best then by all mean give me your criticism that what I made this thread for.
     
  9. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    The key to this is the amount of time you devote to training, plus the approach you take to training. To get a serious level in any martial art, even one martial art, you need to devote time to it.

    I train in a very 'modular' way now, but I've had a lot of years of basic training behind me. My feeling now is that you need to be devoting serious time to training, if you really want a good level. On average, five to six days a week, three to four hours a day, just to get a really good amatuer level. It seems a lot, until you consider Olympic swimmers say, doing three hours before school, then three hours after, that kind of thing.

    You have to make a lot of sacrifices to do that.

    To progress, I believe you have to really engage your subject matter mentally - your training should be geared towards progressing, as opposed to, sometimes people make a religion out of doing basics - that's good but you need to move on to the next stage the moment those basics are correct; the next stage incorporates those basics, but in a more challenging format, and then so on.

    If each module of your training is engaged like that, and you have the time, then there's no reason why you can't train multiple areas/styles etc.
     
  10. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Really? Mine has been that after a few sessions to modify their game, people easily adapt to new striking arts and rarely confuse them and that nobody confuses grappling and striking. *shrug*
    The f... flying purple cowmonkeys? I was thinking maybe 2 or 3 different martial arts...
     
  11. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I think you could overstretch yourself just picking bits from here and there. Little bit of information can be a dangerous thing sometimes but if you can gleam a technique here to add to your core then that can only be a good thing but to really progress you really have to be doing something 3 times a week. As you don't require the base I guess you just adapt the techniques you want to suit you?

    You're looking at how to improve your base art, I don't think an individual needs one, just their own style based on their aquired skills. It's going to amount to pretty much the same thing anyway.

    Different ways to the same goal, so much depends on the individual that I doubt there is a wrong or right way for everyone. The only thing I will say is often your first art can skew your perspective on fighting and martial arts.
    Getting over this bias and becoming a completely all round fighter is my take on things.
     
  12. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    Hahaha! that made me laugh. :) I was under the impression the more the merrier. Obviously not then.
     
  13. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I think you need striking, clinch/close in work and groundwork trained in the minimum amount of arts so you have time to learn the techniques properly.
     
  14. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    Now this might be an interesting tangent.

    With ranges, I would assume and correct me if I'm wrong that you would think that all ranges are as important as any other.

    For me I've come to experience and believe that the clinch/trapping range (as you would have read in the other thread) is the most important range to master for a number of reasons, especially for self-defense too.

    So for sake of example since most won't be able to relate to my system of choice. Say I'm a BJJ nutrider, who thinks the ground is the most important range of all by far. Due to this my core art is BJJ and I want to keep it very strong so it can hold up my other skills. I later add a little bit of MT to set up take downs and then also add some Judo and Wrestling to improve my take downs. But I am very much at my core a BJJ man.

    Another example I can think of is Karo Parizi... however you spell him name. He's a core art fighter, his core art being his Judo.
     
  15. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I think if you are equally comfortable wherever you find yourself it can only be a good thing.
    I think it's where many fights can be won or lost. Personally I think it would be nice to finish a fight without getting that close but as many fights start at that range then proficiency there is very necessary.

    As judo and thai boxing would both be on my list of 'to-do's' then that range is covered nicely.
     
  16. dark belt

    dark belt Valued Member

    Well said, Martial Dad.

    I primarily train in Taekwondo. I secondarily train in Judo. In time, I would like to train in some BJJ--so I know what to do after I kick someone in the head and throw him to the ground. :)
     
  17. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    I cross train in Ninjutsu, Judo, BJJ and Capoeira and the main problem I've had is that I get the names of techniques horribly confused. There are other small problems, with some of the finer points of technques, but I usually get over these the more I practice each technique. I find each of my styles compliments the others nicely. I would have to say that the Ninjutsu is probably my main style as I've been doing it the longest. I do the others to support different aspects of that training. The problem with Ninjutsu is that it covers a large spectrum of techniques and, due to various circumstances, I can only train once a week, which means it's taking a long time for me to become competent at it. However, by cross training in more specialised styles I can concentrate on various aspects of my training and improve more quickly. I do Judo to work throws (and a groundwork), BJJ to improve my groundwork and Capoiera to improve my kicks, athletic ability, body awareness and overall fitness (and because it looks cool!).

    In general I do 1 class a week of each, but it depends on the time I have available.

    I think the advantage of cross training is that it allows you to train in arts that specialise in particular aspects of combat and it gives you a broader perspective on what works and what doesn't and it allows you to pick up on any BS that might be being fed to you a lot more quickly. The disadvantages are that there is a bigger time commitment required and by reducing the time you can dedicate to any single style it lengthens the time it takes to improve in that style.
     
  18. Humblebee

    Humblebee PaciFIST's evil twin


    Run like hell.:eek:
     
  19. progdan

    progdan Valued Member

    Hi there, I have a question along similar lines, so I thought I'd post it here.

    I'm currently training in Krav Maga, which has a fairly wholistic approach as far as standup, ground work, striking etc. but I am interesting in learning perhaps some more 'traditional' arts, ie. Wushu or Hapkido, but with Krav still remaining at the 'Core' if you like.

    But my question is, what is people's general opinions, is it better to train in the one style, whilst trying out others at the same time, or is it better to totally focus on one, for a couple of years say, and then to move on to another, and totally focus on that one, and so on? Do those who train in multiple styles simultaneously find that it can be detrimental to their focus, rendering them reasonable at a few, but not really exceptional at any, ie. the saying: "Jack of all trades, Master on none"?
     
  20. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    I practice iaido and ninpo, and occasionally visit judo or karate dojos.

    I don't do either of the approaches you mention. I train in the two separately as best I can, though technical conflicts do happen. I don't look to add one art to the other art; IMO doing such a thing coherently is much more difficult than some might like to admit.

    These last few months I've doing iaido almost exclusively (almost like 90% iaido and 10% ninpo), but it really depends on personal focus, scheduling, and mundane stuff.

    What are you looking to accomplish with one or both of the methods you are describing?

    The challenges I've seen are the usual ones. Technical conflicts if the fundamental stances and movement tactics are different (in my cases, they are).
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2009

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