"Consent" in pornography: an analogy with combat sports

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Timmy Boy, Jun 9, 2013.

  1. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I'll deny the first chunk. At least from the couple late night casting shows I've seen on tv, there are plenty of women who impose limits on what they will do. Assuming all of them are completely free with their bodies can't be much less insulting than suggesting they're not simply slaves to a misogynistic industry.
     
  2. Princess Haru

    Princess Haru Valued Member

    Consent would be a more considered point here for anyone in the scene. Certainly there is more equality (up to a point) with Femdom and Femsub events, and associated pr0n, but it's hardly mainstream (and no it's not my thing before you ask ;) but I know a friend, or two :rolleyes: Would be like comparing underground bare knuckle fights with Olympic boxing
     
  3. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Wait...I thought she was a Disney actress who transitioned to porn, not the other way around.
     
  4. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    That does kinda make sense. If you're involved in something like hardcore porn and want to move into some other film related industry, then you probably will find success at completely the other end of the spectrum. It's not as though anybody in that age group will have seen any of her previous work.

    It also helps to have some actual acting ability. Haru mentioned Jenna Jamison. Yeah she's famous for her work. But can she actually act? Hollywood use porn actors and actresses all the time in mainstream movies. Especially when a nude scene is on the cards and a body double is needed. If these people have any genuine acting talent they can move on to other work.

    Melinda Messenger is another page 3 girl who move on to a new career. But she didn't go from page 3 direct to TV. She did other things in between like lingerie modelling and got an education. I think she also started some sort of business.

    Basically the people who move on are the people with genuine talent and a determination to do better in life. Which isn't really any different from anybody else. If you're smart enough to be a rocket scientist but lack the motivation to be anything more than the local part-time postman. All you will be is the local part-time postman.
     
  5. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    You may be right actually. Like I said I don't really keep up on entertainment stuff and I don't follow porn actresses either so I may not be the best source of info on this.
     
  6. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Oh wait I just remembered one. The woman who plays Shae in Game of Thrones is an ex porn star.
     
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The reason porn stars can't make it into "mainstream" after porn is because society rejects them from doing so due to "taboos" - its not the end consumer or even the industry, it's almost entirely external from the porn industry especially the media

    So the fault is not porn it's society being a snob
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  8. OwlMAtt

    OwlMAtt Armed and Scrupulous

    You're missing my point. What I'm saying is that the way female characters are presented in most porn suggests that the sexual purpose of women is to please men. That's what is meant by objectification: female characters, rather than being ends unto themselves, exist to serve the ends of men.

    Now, before you point out exceptions to this, I'm not suggesting that all porn is this way or that sexual video material is necessarily misogynistic. I am suggesting that most of the adult entertainment industry is choosing to make their material this way.
     
  9. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    True. And those current conditions mean people should be careful about whether or not they go into porn and like-wise directors and producers should be careful that they are not taking advantage of people.

    I look at it like a tattooist who refuses to tattoo people he/she doesn't know while that person is inebriated. It's understandable because that person while saying "YEAH! Go on, draw a unicorn on my anus and a fairy on cheek!" may reasonably wake up sober tomorrow and really regret that. So the tattooist, knowing this, has some right/responsibility to abstain if they think this might be one of those situations.

    It's not the tattoo's fault that someone might regret it, but if you have a tattooist who consistently attempts to make money off drunk people by tattooing them, even though a good portion of them will wind up regretting it then you have a right to call that person out for taking advantage of people, even though there was consent from both sides.


    Most critics of porn also watch porn. What people like me want is not abolishment, but better porn made by a more ethically minded industry.

    I think some people forget this and when they hear "A woman/feminist critique of porn they start thinking of some puritanical "No porn at all! Sex dehumanises women herp derp" claim. We critique the things we love as much as we critique the things we hate; many criticize porn because we want porn to be more (and we know porn can be more) than "Bend over slut and take it" and that that is a change we should be moving towards.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  10. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Apologies for misunderstanding the original post :)

    I've covered reasons I might disagree with you already in my replies to Zaad and I'm too lazy to go over it again. But assuming I agree with you that porn in its current state suggests the women in there exist only to serve men, I would have to ask what could be done about it?

    I don't necessarily disagree with that idea, but I do think that people suggesting it, at least if its suggested as a negative, forget the context of what the purpose of porn is. The industry exists as nothing much more than a masturbation aid for the audience. Since that's a sexual act it relies on the audience finding what they're watching sexually appealing, which means presenting whatever's on the screen in a sexual way that will be pleasing to the, predominantly male, viewing audience.

    Short of a ban on pornography I don't see what changes you could make to the whole thing to make it less objectifying without sacrificing the industries ability to serve its purpose.

    edit:
    Granted I like my material to be less in your face about it, but how can the industry "be more"? People watch porn to get off. To do that they want to see sex. Granted, you can do it in a much nicer way and some people prefer the soft core approach, or I suppose stripping might fit that idea of better ethics towards women. Maybe I'm being overly cynical and there is a better way of doing things that somehow allows the same level of quick mindless gratification while at the same time preserving the dignity and individuality of the actors/actresses, but I don't see how that's possible?
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  11. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    I'm not saying that porn needs to be soft-core; and as someone who has written before on the topic of BDSM, rape-fantasies and Feminism I certainly don't think "toning it down" is really the answer.

    When it comes to legislation I think there are some good measures you take like setting up anonymous unions for workers in that industry that check how shoots are being run, make sure everyone is testing for STI's and that certain work conditions are met along with impartial support networks provided for those who might be being taken advantage of.

    A lot of that is already in place in some parts of the world, and that's great but where I think the real "battle" is fought is on a grass-roots level, getting better quality porn by:

    A: Making it ourselves.
    B: Prompting the industry to do things differently.
    and
    C: Encouraging viewers to change their viewing habits by helping them become more conscious of their consumption habits and the influences that has on society. I.E. You buy sexist/possibly exploitative porn and you end up helping prop up a sub-market of porn that has negative impacts society.

    At the end of the day its about people and my personal opinion is that legislation is a nice stop gap but the real meat of the issue is in challenging the social attitudes that create those trends in porn production and consumption.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  12. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I agree wholeheartedly with all of those, but they don't change what I thought the objection was which is how women are actually portrayed on the screen, not how they might be taken advantage of backstage. I imagine everyone's united on them not being treated like crap during production. That's a basic workers' rights issue.

    Looking out of my window I see some flaws with that idea :p

    Agreed

    This I'm less sure of and is what I've been arguing against. Its a great sounding idea, but how do you go about changing my viewing habits from watching a perfectly functional service that does its job to one that's somehow less "exploitative" without damaging the end product? Again assuming we're talking about what's actually on the screen as exploitative. Its sex. Your options for changing how its presented are limited IMO. I guess you could put more emphasis on acting and try to focus more on making it seem like a loving romantic couple?
     
  13. OwlMAtt

    OwlMAtt Armed and Scrupulous

    The first step, I think, is to find a way to keep porn out of the hands of kids (particularly boys) until we've had the chance to give them a real sex education and they've had the chance to experience real relationships themselves. Theoretically, this shouldn't be that hard, since it's illegal to show sexually explicit material to minors, but the truth is that it's virtually impossible.

    We're raising an entire generation of boys who become extensively versed in fake fantasy sex and imaginary submissive women before they ever kiss a girl, and the result is that many of them bring expectations shaped by porn into the world of real women. This is bad for women, but good for porn, because boys who get hooked on the fantasy become men who are dissatisfied with the reality and have to keep getting their fantasy fix from more porn.

    If we can take that away, if we can find a way to teach our boys about the reality before they get to the fantasy, we can take away a lot of the commercial advantage of misogynistic porn and turn porn into what it is supposed to be: entertainment for normal people rather than escapism for the lonely.
     
  14. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    Those measurements are far more about exploitation and abuse (which is a concern of everyone generally) so yeah, those are on a separate subject.



    There are a couple of things that one can do. In BDSM shoots (when you are dealing with rape/torture scenes) one of the best things to do is have interviews before and after; you can always skip them sure, but just turn it on and play it and the real-life context of that scene ensures that the fantasy is kept in the locked (poor choice of words there ;) ) box of fantasy.

    Otherwise you can think about the camera angle stuff and directing in terms of the kinds of performances you coax out of your actors, how you edit and what parts of the sex act get the most emphasis to help create more porn that is about two people having sex, rather than having your entire film consist of one person having sex with a bag of meat that occasionally goes "Ooooh" and "Yes".... and then when you recognize a porn film that is un-necessarily engaged in this then it's time to find new material.

    Warning TMI coming up!

    Generally the thought is that normal people don't want to do stuff that is immoral, especially if there are alternatives being provided that do that job without any risk of the implied sexism. I myself have changed my viewing habits I simply don't want to masturbate to porn that is genuinely objectifying women; especially when I have friends I can ask who can recommend me better material that doesn't do that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  15. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    But still something worth pointing out. I hadn't thought about any of the filming practices in the industry before reading this thread.

    Fair one. I saw something on the bbc this week about calls to ban rape fantasy porn but a warning label might be a good compromise.

    You know, this is an increasingly hard (lulz) discussion to have while keeping within map's limits :p

    But doing the best to stay within TOS, what type of editing would you like to see? Sex act wise I think I know where you're going with it, lord knows men have a ridiculously over inflated idea of fellatio's place in a relationship, but I can see equalling that out by more focus on female oral sex or whatever you want to put there instead. But what about the actual sex? For instance some positions by their nature come across as more dominating and I'm unsure how to solve that, and the only way I can think of off the top of my head to mkae it more apparent that its meant to be an act between two people would be things like removing certain close up shots and dividing camera cuts more between the participants. But, and a TMI warning of my own, I personally like the guys invovled to be as quiet and unreferenced as possible. Mostly because they are far sexier than I'll ever be and jealousy is a passion killer :p Or they stare at the camera non stop. That is just creepy.

    Reading that I'm actually starting to wonder if I agree despite my protestations. (More TMI warning) I'm assuming when we talk about the type of movie that objectifies women we're referring to the more professional type shoot. Those videos I personally can't enjoy and I'm starting to wonder now if it is for simliar reasons. I know I don't like them because of the fakeness and the "bend over, you like this don't you" attitude that comes across, but I've never thought if it as an objection to objectifying before.
     
  16. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    Ah, the joys of the internet!

    I think a warning label would stop people watching it who didn't want to watch, but in order to mitigate the problem of instilling social attitudes in those who do knowingly watch it it'd be preferable to find a way to make it clear that this is an orchestrated scenario between consenting actors who in all honesty, enjoy the activity.


    The specifics really should be up to the director and what they want to appeal to, I don't think there is any standard model. For instance I want more films with trans-gendered people; but I don't want it to become tradition that we import a transgender person into every single film regardless of how appropriate/inappropriate that may be.

    I think what can be taken away from this is that a lot of porn is marketed specifically for a certain audience and often entrenches and engenders beliefs within that audience that are questionable and I think having people make porn for wider markets (thereby making women, for example, active voyeurs in that "community", not just the things which porn watches) and create porn with the social awareness that we really should apply to all media as a loose rule can take us a long way.

    Maybe you, like I imagine many others, are not part of that "target audience"; maybe you feel uncomfortable because you are already aware there is something weird about that dynamic and you don't want to relate to it?

    (I'm not trying to say too much here, just giving my intuition because I recognize that feeling in myself)
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  17. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Haven't got much to say to all that really. I agree with it all. Will say that warning label was the wrong word in my other post. I meant the kind of notice that is was a staged scenario with actors that you suggested.

    Well this was very low on my expected topics to discuss on map when I signed up but I had fun talking about it :hat:
     
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    "Give, and it shall be given unto you... For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again." -Luke 6:38
     
  19. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I don't know how, but that's going to be written into my vows if I ever get married
     
  20. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    I heard of that phenomenon. Person sees something on porn which they take into their relationship. Person on porn asks, `would you mind if I....*name some act they saw on porn* The result is not spontenaity but just recreating porn.
     

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