Confidence to use Aikido

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Tintin, Sep 11, 2003.

  1. Tintin

    Tintin Cats: All your base...

    Something came to mind today, and I thought I'd see what peoples thoughts on it were. I'm specifically interested in what other aikidoka have to say, although someone might want to start a verson of this thread for other martial arts, or in general.

    Do you think that you would use Aikido techniques if a 'situation' arose where you had no choice but to fight?

    Most of us happily say we would, but when the pressures on and the adrenalin is flowing, do you think you might just resort to 'scrapping'?

    I'm maybe leading the question a bit here, but by Aikido techniques I don't mean avoiding the situation, or reading when a strike is coming, in this instance I just mean pure waza.
     
  2. Jim

    Jim New Member

    (Don't mean to hijack 'cos I do a Japanese art too...) I think it depends on the attack situation that comes your way. If your attacker were to come in with a knife attack Norman Bates style I have very little doubt that an Aikido type defence would 'kick in' and you'd use it.

    Different (possibly) if someone were to accuse you of drinking their beer at a bar and snap a quick jab to your head...

    (PS - Marty, tell me if I shouldn't have posted here)
     
  3. Tintin

    Tintin Cats: All your base...

    Don't worry, all interesting replies welcome!
     
  4. dmiller575

    dmiller575 Valued Member

    I am pleased to say that I have had no direct experience of having to fight. But I suspect that our training would get in the way and may act against us.

    As an example the pundits reckon that most fights are won by using Atemi Waza and that it is very difficult to apply locks when under pressure.

    Our training 'softens' our Atemi waza as our objective is to apply Atemi Waza in a way that will throw our opponent rather than strike them.

    The original Atemi waza for say a Shomenate was to strike the opponents chin with the heel of the hand in an upwards direction and when done in this way is particularly effective and therefore dangerous.

    As you know we have changed this to pushing the chin downwards as a necessary safety measure. As a result we still have an effective technique but I would argue that it is harder to apply and make work than the original.

    So in the interests of making techniques safer so that we can practice them in our classes and even take them on into competition we may have reduced their effectiveness in a real life situation.

    I do agree though that if an attack is badly telegraphed and also resembles the sort of wrist grabs that we often practice against then we are likely to answer with a fairly pure technique even employing a lock or throw. However I think this sort of 'gift' is unlikely.
     
  5. timmeh!

    timmeh! New Member

    Statistics say an unarmed attack will be 70-80% a big right handed haymaker, provided by one who is drunk or high, or both - An Aikidoka's bread and butter really, so in a one on one here I'd definitely use an aikido technique, ikkyo? (arm lock) probably, so as not to damage them, but place them under control so we could discuss any issues they have...
    Against a 'useful' and/or an armed attacker, it would be what came instinctively, I've been doing Aikido about a year now, so a years worth of Aikido training would be used for the footwork, distancing and blocking, it would depend on what they attacked with, if an opportunity presented itself for a technique I'd use it, however if an opportunity appeared to finish it with a kick, punch, elbow or knee to somewhere soft, squishy and/or vulnerable I'd take that too (other instincts/training learnt prior to Aikido). For example, Mr Freeform showed me a Tai jutsu defense technique from a straight arm punch to the face which basically broke the attackers arm with a scissor action from your arms out in front scissoring against the forearm and bicep, breaking the elbow joint - Like other things I've learnt from other martial arts, they're not Aikido techniques but they're instictive reactions to the stimuli of an attack. So really, (and like everyone else who's trained in more than one art) due to my personal history I suppose I have my own martial art if it came down to it, as from pure instinct I'd pull from everything I've learnt from over the years (anyone for timmeh!do? :D). So, in 5 years time and I've only trained in Aikido, my main response would probably be Aikido.

    Ultimately I really don't like hurting people, that's why I took up Aikido because prior to that I could only instinctively pull out very damaging and disabling techniques that could either kill or leave an attacker mentally or physically disabled. This actually put me at a dissadvantage against the haymaker drunk guys because a personal paranoia is killing or permanently disabling someone in self defense. Now, with the help of Aikido I'd endeavour to get it over with as quickly as possible with as little damage as possible (unless they were armed) until they were disabled enough that I could get away safely.

    So... after the ramble, yes, I'd definitely use Aikido in some form or another in whatever situation presented itself because that's what I train in and what my body most easily remembers instinctively now (your fault Tintin! ;) )
    Training is really just instinct a few months down the line.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2003
  6. timmeh!

    timmeh! New Member

    ooh my 13th reply.....
     
  7. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Excellent question. Now and then I think about this too. I've never been in a fight. I'm untested. I don't know what I would do.

    I feel really good about some of my aikido moves. I think that I could and would use some of them in a real situation. At the very least I will use the footwork, I think. But as for other moves ... no way. If the energy wasn't just right I'd have to resort to my prior martial arts history and/or pure animal survival. Expect some elbow strikes to the face.

    I've had the benefit of being instructed by aikido blackbelts who have actually and successfully used aikido against fully-resisting people. (That's what they say, and when someone whom I consider a friend tells me something to my face, I believe him.) This gives me hope for my own future. If aikido worked for them, then it can work for me, if and when the time comes, and if I keep practicing.
     
  8. Virtuous

    Virtuous New Member

    From my experience Randori is an excellent tool to train in a high stress situation. With good ukes you should not have the time to to think of the next technique. Instead I rely on the basic principals of Aiki's balance taking/manipulation and joint locks.

    For the very resistive Ukes/BDU (Big Dumb and Uglys) is where Atemi waza shines. If you can pound the stew out of some one and get them to loosen up for a brief second you'll have all the time you need to execute a technique to the point of no return.

    Im curious though, do most Aikido schools shun the atemi or give little focus to it? From a Aikijutsu standpoint the Uke should be in pain and/or off balance the moment you touch them. So I never start a techniuqe with out one, even if it is just a feint or a flash of the hand in front of their face (if you want to be nice) to disrupt their mental kazushi.

    Also the percentage of a right handed hay maker are pretty good but you can do better. The next best thing is a grab, and if a BDU is dumb enough to grab you, they deserve to get hurt. Here is what I have used and recomend. If you are in a confrontation and you feel it is going to get physical just stick your hand(s) out there in front of you in the aggressor's face (not up against his nose but close enough where he can grab you) essintially you're baiting him/her and say the usual 'I dont want to fight you, lets just calm down and talk about this'. If you're really lucky they will back off but, if your lucky they will try to batt your hand away or grab it, hello Aiki. I had a family member who had once had a little too much to drink and was getting really aggressive and this worked great, after he took the bait It went into a nice Nikyo where I held him until the situation de-esculated. The beautiful thing is every witness will say 'the guy didnt want to fight he kept telling the other guy to please stop'. Thats my one dirty trick, but in a fight you have to give your self every advantage you can take.
    For the sucker punches that you dont see coming, well I hope you can take a punch. If not look into a kick boxing class where you can get knocked around some and learn to maintain your own mental kazushi.
     
  9. Munners

    Munners New Member

    Hello everyyone. I'm new here but wanted to give my 2 cents worth on the question:

    "Do you think that you would use Aikido techniques if a 'situation' arose where you had no choice but to fight? "

    To give background my own very limited experience of using Aikido in real-life: I was walking home late at night and came on a man holding a woman by the lapels, telling her she had to come home with him. The thing is, they must have both been around the 50 or 60 agemark. The woman was yelling for help, and I stepped in.
    Funnily enough I had previously done a nikyo defence on one person strangling another (as a third party), but this technique did not spring to mind. I talked with the guy and managed to get one of his hands towards me. I turned this into jumonji, but did not throw. He was stooped over as I had taken his centre. and after talking for another minute or so, he let go and left.

    What I learned from this is;
    1) You may not need to throw a full-force technique, depending on the uke
    2) Using a technique in real-life it will be quite/very different from the dojo

    ======
    "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free"
    Chuang-Tzu
     
  10. Munners

    Munners New Member

    Hello everyone. I'm new here but wanted to give my 2 cents worth on the question:

    "Do you think that you would use Aikido techniques if a 'situation' arose where you had no choice but to fight? "

    To give background my own very limited experience of using Aikido in real-life: I was walking home late at night and came on a man holding a woman by the lapels, telling her she had to come home with him. The thing is, they must have both been around the 50 or 60 agemark. The woman was yelling for help, and I stepped in.
    Funnily enough I had previously done a nikyo defence on one person strangling another (as a third party), but this technique did not spring to mind. I talked with the guy and managed to get one of his hands towards me. I turned this into jumonji, but did not throw. He was stooped over as I had taken his centre. and after talking for another minute or so, he let go and left.

    What I learned from this is;
    1) You may not need to throw a full-force technique, depending on the uke
    2) Using a technique in real-life it will be quite/very different from the dojo

    But with a quick attack, who knows? I would guess the footwork would come in naturally.


    ======
    "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free"
    Chuang-Tzu
     
  11. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Right, over the past 2ish years I've been training in Aikido under Tintin Sensei (Hi Martin! :) ) and I've also been working in Edinburgh as a bouncer, but my major background is Goshindo Tai Jitsu which stems from Daito Ryu, so there's a lot of commonality in techniques (and a lot of difference as well ;) ).

    For my work as a bouncer I felt that Aikido (meaning no offence to anyone) 'softened up' my technique but also improved upon my range of controlling methods that I've used to 'take 'em outside'. So 'Yes' I've used Aikido 'for real' but in the context of control which isn't a proper scrap.

    But before my Aikido training when I purely trained in Tai Jitsu I have used what we termed 'Aiki techniques' in proper scraps, usually with the afore mentioned BDU's ;) I have also fought with proper 'street learned' scrappers and a couple of kickboxers (I grew up in such a nice place! :) ). I found very few 'Aiki techniques' to be of use here, I'm not saying that they wouldn't be, just that there are other methods which require less training time to become adept at which were applicable.




    Dave, reminds me of a Tai Jitsu technique, remember how I was looking at the Randori no kata and comparing the two?



    Did I? Did Martin see? Am I in trouble again? ;)

    Col
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2003
  12. timmeh!

    timmeh! New Member

    Col, I thought you'd been working as an 'security hospitality incident requirement technician' (SHIRT) - nothing so crude as 'bouncer'... :D

    I remember learning your technique very well from the cracking noise my elbow made ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2003
  13. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    My view on this is like many trad arts

    You learn techniques very well but not how to apply them when under pressure.

    Its the full application of a technique that leads to true SD. Going from an unfamiliar situation to a end move.

    Eg, being on the floor and ending up in a standing straight arm lock without getting your butt kicked.

    or another

    Having kicks thrown at you and ending with a double ground based choke or lock.

    This is that you are given a situation where you are on the defence and told your ending move. Not given an attack that is obvious as to what defence you will use. This is the best method as then you will know the move. MAKE SURE THE OTHER PERSON IS FIGHTING BACK.

    If you can do this then you know your techniques practical application, then you have a chance of using it in SD.
     
  14. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    The under pressure bit is why Tomiki introduced Randori into his system of Aikido was it not? (or one of the reasons).

    Col
     
  15. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    I am not that versed in its history

    and the styles I have done are pretty much the norm so I could not give an accurate indication to be fair.

    But if so what is the randori they do?
     
  16. Mr Blobby

    Mr Blobby New Member

    A haymaker, eh... If you get time, keep him swinging, carry the momentum of his arm round to his opposite shoulder, cut with your other hand to his lower back, quick irime and - hey presto! - irimi-nage, he's on the floor. Or, you're not fast enough and get knocked out yourself. Worth a try!

    I wish we did more randori at my dojo. I find it the best way of letting go of technique and letting the ki flow instinctively...
     
  17. Tomiki Ryu

    Tomiki Ryu New Member

    I've only been taking Aikido for a little over 4 months now (3hrs a week) so probably don't qualify to reply here, but Im bored, so I will anyways, heh.
    I think at this point I would use Aikido without thinking about it DEPENDING on the attack presented to me. My school does a great deal of randori training, even at the lower levels, both armed and unarmed. Both my sensei have studied several forms of Aikido and hold Dan ranks in judo. They stress use of Atemi waza greatly, although not till the upper ranks (2-3 Kyu etc.). Also they don't teach bad habits like pushing the chin down for Aiagame ate etc. the chin goes up and back in a push down motion as the Nage comes in from underneath at a 45 degree angle. I belong to a 'no frills' style dojo that is family owned by an 'old school' Japanese family.
    Honestly though I am not training in Aikido to be a better fighter, thats only a beneficial side effect. I train Aikido for the spiritual side and beauty of the art itself.
     
  18. nonono90

    nonono90 New Member

    I'm an aikido newbie as well, 2 months. I don't feel like I would at all be able to use aikido against a real life attack. But I do think if i was able to successfully land a few punches and kicks to stun the opponent, i would be able to use aikido to end the fight without further damage to him. I also train in Krav-Maga which teaches the skill of striking till the oppenent can no longer get up or attack. My goal with aikido was to develop the ability to have a multi-tiered self defense continum. This is atleast my current goal. Throw a few combos if necessary then de-escalate using a aikido takedown. Just wanted to share how I see myself being able to use aikido in a fight.
     
  19. DexterTCN

    DexterTCN New Member

    Tomiki brought randori (one translation is 'finding order in chaos') into his aikido because he was adept at judo and saw the benefits of it. Don't forget that grading systems also came from judo and work precisely (in the case of judo) because of an extension of randori.

    Ask anyone who has ever spent more than a few years in judo: 'would you have done judo if it did not have randori?' and you will get laughed at, or a blank gaze. Ask a boxer if he would have been any good without sparring. Or ask a wrestler if they would have been as good if they had spent all their time on 'technique'.

    The straight answer is that people need to see if their stuff works 'against' other people who have no intention of letting it work and in judo, boxing, aikido etc there have to be 'rules' to ensure safety. People who do not have randori seem to see this as a sell-out. Their loss imo, you find out more about yourself in one randori than in 20 'technique' classes...both are necessary.

    The trouble is...when most aikidoka hear the word 'randori' they think of 'competition' which is entirely different.

    btw in Scotland the most likely attack is a 100mph headbutt from an angle that you have no chance of seeing. Better work on that ma-ai. :D
     
  20. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Hey Mark



    Hell no! It the only reason I'm there! :D

    Strangley enough I was skimming Scott Allbrights book this morning, 'Aikido and Randori' and its said that later on in Tomiki's life he claimed he primarily introduced randori to encourage childern to train! :)



    Truer words have never been spoken.

    The problem with randori is that, in my experience, the attacker won't commit to a strike because they don't want 'beaten'. This removes a lot of the dynamic energy required for a good technique.

    Colin
     

Share This Page