Concerning hapkido

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by Dead_pool, Aug 17, 2012.

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  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    http://classicbudoka.wordpress.com/2012/06/28/65-injuries-in-martial-arts/

    After all, it does no good if you go into battle and your warriors are all hobbling around on busted knees, with bad backs and wrenched elbows.* Samurai who developed the original Japanese martial ryu knew this, and so they drew the line between hard but sensible training and nonsensical training that bordered on the sadistic and masochistic. In fact, the whole nature of*koryu*training, even those with a “resistive” competitive component, is based on training only hard enough to develop realistic skills, but not so hard that you destroy the practitioners’ bodies and render them useless for actual combat. There are built-in safeguards in kata training. There are rules in resistive training.* We need to be aware of them and respectful of such regulations so that we all can practice without fear of senseless injury.
     
  2. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    In all possible Honesty and Sincerity, I truly believe that you need to go back and do some actual reading on the nature of Military Science, Martial Arts and the attitudes that prevailed during their development. Reading your posts I get the sense that you have a very sanitized version of MA History..... or have just spent way too much time relating to the MA world through heavily filtered sources. IMVHO.
     
  3. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    So do you have any personal experience with the "real" military/martial hapkido or the equivalent in another style?

    If so, could you provide some examples of such? Maybe a video or curriculum list, something tangible like that?


    If not, is this all just speculation on your part or is there anything concrete that would lead you to believe that real combat oriented martial arts are so fundamentally different from what is practiced today?
     
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  5. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Calling anything "Hapkido arts" continues to devalue Choi Dojunim's art. Having spoken to people in Daegu that started training with Choi Dojunim in 1949, and having stayed long enough to get 8th Dan from him, he was very tough, very strong, and a man of few words.

    His original material, all from Japan, often flew in the face of Korean sensibilities, and he did do some modification to his material, like adding strikes in 1952, to make his teaching more accepted in Korea.

    The notion that there is a military or civilian version of Hapkido is pure fantasy. The art is taught just as Choi Dojunim did in many Dojang in Korea and around the world. True, most of the material taught as Hapkido is simply NOT Hapkido. The art is in relative terms very new, it does not need huge revisions for the "modern world". It has no connection to the historical revisionism practiced by those interested in reviving ancient military tactics from books. And all of that is fine, but it is not Hapkido.

    For far too long, the practice of Hapkido has been muddied by those that never learned the entire curriculum, added material not part of the original intent of the art, and by those that simply use the name because to stand up and say that what that person is doing is not Hapkido makes people bristle and feel uneasy.

    Now, if what one studies works for them, that's great, but most of the Hapkido banners out there should simply come down. When has enough been added or taken away that it is no longer Hapkido...when the person teaching has never learned the entire curriculum, or when additions are made that have no relevant link to the original intent of the art.

    Choi Dojunim never taught a military vs civilian art - he taught what he knew, quite consistently through his 36,year teaching career. Approximately 100 techniques to Black Belt, lesser numbers through 3rd Dan then a far more expansive curriculum into the upper Dan ranks.
    Again, perhaps with another art, but there is no "military" version of Hapkido as opposed to a civilian one - just the art that Choi Dojunim taught, which many people tried to emulate and failed.

    As far as Choi Dojunim "falling" to figurehead status, this is simply misinformation. Choi Dojunim might have simply continued his normal path of not teaching certain material to certain people, thus perhaps they did not want to pay him for seminars. If you were not living in Daegu, with very few exceptions, he never taught the entire curriculum.

    The "famous" 1968 demo where so many claimed they were given rank and status, which never happened, was an attempt to at least look at all the divergent groups in the art in Korea at the time. It was shortly after that Choi Dojunim began to distance himself from those who chose to try and elevate their rank and standing without him. This is when low and medium ranked practioners outside Daegu began to issue higher rank to each other, and a mass migration of pseudo Hapkido teachers left Korea to teach in other countries in the early 1970's.

    Having seen Chang Gedo's material first hand, he might have presumed Choi Dojunim was dead as he had no contact with him and was never a student of his.
     
  6. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    Good post.

    I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but this phenomenon of people issuing rank to each other is not just unique to Hapkido. ;)
     
  7. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    Iron_Ox - In regards to your statement above concerning "His original material, all from Japan", I know there is the daito ryu connection and others have discussed it before.

    However, I'm curious about specifically what you have heard and your experience on the subject.

    I apologize if I missed it.
     
  8. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Yes, I am certain it exists in other arts, but it is an epidemic in Hapkido. We have students issueing rank to their teachers, or people simply founding organizations and using this to give themselves elevated rank.

    While I fully believe other arts suffer from airport ranking, it is quite amazing in Hapkido - and the certificates look great! We even have organizations that will accept member schools that have issued fake rank from the organization they are not a member of...yet...and oddly, it doesn't seem to matter to anyone!

    At this point, other than honestly examining rank one at a time....I'm not sure there is much that can be done.

    What we do have in Hapkido is these same low and medium ranked instructors now issueing 9th and even 10th dans in Hapkido...and no one speaks out!
     
  9. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    I definitely understand.
     
  10. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Well, here is what is known.

    Choi Dojunim was taken to Japan at about age 8 and was there until he was 44. He began to train a few years later, having never trained in any art in Korea.

    Again, from the earliest recollection anyone has of speaking withnChoi Dojunim about Japan, he related then story of being with Takes a Sokaku. When shown a picture he confirmed that was who he trained with.

    Now while debate can rage about the connection, we know that Tekeda Sokaku kept records of his trainees, which they all entered into his log. Choi Dojunim was illiterate, so he would have never entered his name even if he felt it important.

    Technically, I think there are some interesting clues as to what he must have learned.

    Choi Dojunim taught sword defense, very effective, very simple, yet he said that his knowledge of sword offence was limited as if he was always on the receiving end of the swing. Most of our strikes, foot positions, hip motions mimicks sword use, and the art is often referred to as a sword art without the sword.

    The weapons Choi Dojunim taught often related to this sword mechanic, the Dan bong, or short stick is an anti-sword weapon of last resort, something clearly of Japanese origin, as the Koreans never developed such a weapon.

    While there are some sharp contrasts with Daito-ryu, we share almost identical use of body mechanics and footwork, so I do believe that Choi Doju I'm learned something closely related to this, even if no second exists.

    Another very interesting point is the relationship with Jang Im Mok I known Korean ranked student of Takeda Sokaku. Jang always saw Choi Dojunim as his senior, this certainly says something for a training relationship.

    I am still fascinated by the relationships I see in Daito-ryu and Hapkido technique, especially the more antiquated technique that have some marked similarity.
     
  11. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    This would make sense because a lot of Japanese ryu-ha (and jujutsu) contain unarmed methods for dealing with an enemy who was armed.

    Here is a repost of an old but good article by Meik Skoss talking about jujutsu:
    http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss8.html
     
  12. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Hopefully over time, the reality of what Hapkido is will start to become more easily traced. I have seen a slow decline in the interest in "Hapkido" as bad technique and improper training have left people very disenchanted as to what Hapkido really is.

    Its kind of a shame.
     
  13. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    I just wondered, why doesn't the jungki kwan go back to calling what they do yawara (or hapki yukwonsul) ?? That seems to be what Choi actually called what he did.
    The hapki yusul people don't call what they do hapkido, and they have good claims as well to being keepers of Choi's heritage.
     
  14. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    I can't and don't speak for what Grandmaster Lim does. Choi Dojunim called his art Hapkido far longer than Hapki yusul.

    While I don't know all the circumstances regarding Grandmaster Kim's claim, Choi Dojunim only named a single successor in his lifetime, Chang Chin Il Dojunim.

    Grandmaster Kim's certificate was given to him by Choi Dojunim's daughter in law, who does not appear to have any standing in the art at all.

    Moreover, why don't all the other groups actually rename what they do to reflect how far from Hapkido some of them actually are...
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2012
  15. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    There is the argument of course that Ji Han-jae came up with the name hapkido for what he did.
    Now of course I have never met Choi Yong-sul, but he doesn't strike me as the kind of person that would care much about what you named it, as long as you practiced your butt of.
     
  16. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Yeah, the same man that used to call himself Choi Dojunim's top ranked student, then who claimed he trained with a monk and mystical old woman...and that he created the cane and Dan bong techniques. That's then short list of all the stuff Ji claims, let's not forget his gold belt he wore from game of death for years......

    Ji has very little credibility.
     
  17. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    please get your info right, the bagua guy in question never killed any students, he was very rough with them but no one can point to specific deaths, but he was a one off, the other big three in bagua never killed any students or injured them...so your point is what exactly?

    That some teachers hurt there students quite badly? this happens in all arts and even combat sports (some of the things that happens to the shooto guys in japan is down right scary, as is what happens to guys in the old days trying to learn catch) and means nothing other than the teacher was mentally unstable

    it proves nothing about the arts themselves. stories that are without dates and facts they are just that stories and get exaggerated over time and distorted, case in point your bagua story. For every story of kwoon and dojo storming you can answer with a story of the Gracies storming gyms in brasil
     
  18. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    This is the place where I start getting really annoyed.

    a.) The question you asked was addressed in a previous post so plainly you have not been reading what I wrote.

    b.) Since you have not been reading what I have written so far, what POSSIBLE good would it do to provide any further citation to you.

    c.) Lastly...what IF I had ----how did you put it?--- "personal experience" what would THAT prove. What do you want to know: have I ever killed or maimed someone? What exactly would that prove within the context of this discussion? If you had been reading my posts you would know what my point has been all along. My guess, however, is that you are not much interested in Truthes as much as watching something burn.

    Pretty Lame.
     
  19. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Nice attitude there. I belive the acadamic model your school is apparently based on should welcome open dialoge.
     
  20. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    My thoughts on who did what and to whom are pretty predictable but Klaas raises a point that I have loudly speculated about more than once.

    CHoi is recorded as calling his material "yawara" which is a pretty generic term in and of itself.

    The HAPKI--- moniker didnt come around until after CHOI met SUH it went as far as HAPKI YU SOOL and HAPKI YU KWON SUL. JI started laying claim to "inventing" the term " Hapkido" and we all know the dispute about that. My point, however, is that someone, somewhere is going to need to start being much more discerning in how they use their information. For instance, at least the folks with the Chinese influence such as KUKSOOLWON and HWARANGDO did not call they arts "Hapkido" though in point of fact they ARE Hapkido arts as far as the amount of material taken from CHOI's currriculum. We also know that MYONG Jae Nam tried to meld AIKIDO and HAPKIDO but it was still called "Hapkido". Still looking at all of this and wondering why folks OUTSIDE of Hapkido community don't know what it is?

    I'm, personally at a point in my life where I am pretty much sick of watching Koreans play games with their own heritage. If they don't have anymore respect for their material why are Americans expected to?

    Coming back to one last layer, I still represent that we have yet to reconcile the nature of Hapkido as it is practiced today and how it was originally intended. I'm saying nothing about "good", "bad" or "indifferent". What I can say is that I have been to seminars where people do the "Hobbyist Thing": limp-writed throws, pulled kicks and the rest. Later they go out for a couple of beers and brag about what a deadly art they are practicing....once a week.... for an hour and a half........if that......

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
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