Combat Hapkido

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by hardball, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    well see! Glad I didn't take lessons from the guy lol
     
  2. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Personally, I don't care who invented what... I always found joint locks and such very fascinating, ever since seeing the first Steven Seagal movie. I know that the movies are the movies, but at least the guy really did/does know what he was doing. From that point on as a kid I wanted to learn stuff like it. I'd take Aikido too if it was available in my area.
     
  3. Sinmoo

    Sinmoo Valued Member

  4. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    Founder of Sinmoo Hapkido.
    We all know that the creation of hapkido was a unorganised joint effort of more persons building on what Choi Yong-sul taught and therefor crediting Choi as the founder of hapkido. ;-)
     
  5. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    ah...it's on the internet, so it must be true. :)

    with all due respect, i think i understand where your opinion comes from, but to me, it seems not quite accurate. according to the wikipedia article you've shared, ji han jae is dan #14, his teacher was in fact choi yong-sool. how do you go from "student" to "founder"?
     
  6. Sinmoo

    Sinmoo Valued Member

    Yes you are right he Ji was 14th in Choi's style, that system was not HKD but Jujitsu from Japan refereed to as Yawara. The term HKD was not in use when Ji was 14th, etc... Choi eventually adopted the name HKD because it became popular and he had a famous student Ji Han Jae who took it to the next level.

    Hapkido is a lot more then Choi's art alone and mainly developed and disseminated by Ji which is why many feel he is the real founder of HKD.

    One could argue both way and both have fair points, I feel it is Ji with sound reasons.
     
  7. doomx2001

    doomx2001 Valued Member

    I will add my two cents. Warning, I have a bad habit of misspelling words, and leaving words out all together! So please re-read my post if necessary. :)



    Ji Han Jae was a student of Choi Yong Sul starting in 1949.
    Choi Yong Sul had many different names for what he taught. It took the longest time for him to eventually settle on a name. During the time that Ji Han Jae was with him may have been a period where Choi kept changing the name. For example, wikipedia says that: "In 1951, Choi and Seo opened up the Daehan Hapki Yu Kwon Sool Dojang"

    * Note: If Ji Han Jae trained with Choi before the official dojo was opended, then did he first train at the Brewery with Choi and Seo Bok-seob?

    Anyway, according to wikipedia, Choi didn't start using the name Hapkido until 1958. Which, by the way, is when Ji Han Jae started teaching, and Ji Han Jae also started using the name 'Hapkido'.

    * Note: Is it possible that Ji Han Jae actually came up with the name 'Hapkido' and that Choi Yong Sul liked the name, and used it? I've read somewhere that Ji Han Jae supposedly gave Choi his blessing to use the name Hapkido.

    Also worthy of note according to Wikipedia: "Seo Bok-Seob however states in a 1980 interview that it was Jung Moo Kwan who first used the term to refer to the art as well as the symbol of the eagle to represent the art."


    Ji Han Jae, who earn a 3rd degree black belt under Choi eventually branched off in 1958, and started teaching himself. So that was 1949-1958, 9 years with Choi, that is a long time! Most didn't last that long. Also, Ji Han Jae must have been a right hand guy to Choi at some point in the early days of Hapkido.
    To add to that point, usually the highest ranking students sit closest to their teacher, here is a photo for reference (Hopefully it loads correctly):



    [​IMG]




    Anyway, Ji Han Jae wanted to add to the curriculum that Choi taught, so he (Ji) incorparted high flashy kicks, some meditation, and few other things. To him, he created Hapkido and Choi Yong Sul was teaching Japanese Yawara or Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. I suppose to Ji Han Jae that where he added to what Choi taught, that he had to separate what he did from Choi, hence the name change. But, Choi ended up liking the name himself. Hence the conflict to come.

    Ji Han Jae's 'Hapkido' is what the majority of us have learned. Ji Han Jae is the guy largely responsiable for the spread of Hapkido because he taught so many people, many of which no longer claim him as their instructor, but instead claim Choi Yong Sul. Bong Soo Han, for example, was said to be a student of Ji Han Jae as well as many other famous Hapkioians. A little research would shed alot of light showing that Jae taught alot of famous Hapkido people.

    Back to the point, if you research orthodox Hapkido styles such as Jung Ki Kwan Hapkido, Yong Sul Kwan Hapkiyusul, (possibly) Rims Hapkido, ..... you will see that they DO NOT teach high kicks (just low off balancing kicks) nor do they teach alot of the flashy moves we see today in Hapkido, and the footwork is also different in places when comparted to orthodox styles of Hapkido.

    So really there are two Hapkido's (more if you count other variations 'KSW'). These can be narrowed down into Ji Han Jae influenced Hapkido and Orthodox Hapkido from Choi Yong Sul.

    The best way to put this into perspective, in Japan, you have Daito ryu Aikijutus which has strikes, painful joint locks, nerve attacks...etc.
    And its offspring Aikido. Which focuses more on not injuring the opponent, spiritualism, and a different approach to weapons.

    Aikido and Daito ryu are two different arts, but extremely similar. If you were to go to Japan and couldn't read the banner outside, then inside, you couldn't tell what you were learning, whether that be Aikido or Daito ryu as many of the moves are the same, and they dress the same. But over time you would notice the difference.

    Well same can be said for the two hapkidos.

    To further anger everyone (because this will upset people, but I'm sorry this just where my research has lead me so far) here are a few schools for contrast and perspective.

    Ji Han Jae influenced: .................... Choi Yong Sul represented:
    Sin Moo Hapkido ..................................... Jung Ki Kwan Hapkido
    World Hapkido Federation ............................ Yong Sul Kwan Hapkiyusul
    World Hapkido Association ............................ Rims Hapkido
    Korea Hapkido Federation ............................. GM Chinil Chang Hapkido
    Jin Jung Kwan Hapkido
    Kuk Sool based arts



    Anyway, anyone who has done research on these styles between the two categories can see the differences. The reason I made such a list and brought up such a point is this:

    In Ji Han Jaes mind he created Hapkido because he came up with the name and added high kicks, meditation, some karate/taekwondo like blocking/movements and few other things compared to what he learned from Choi Yong Sul.
    So in that mindset, he did create 'Hapkido' using what he learned from Choi Yong Sul as its base.


    To finish up, in my opinion, rank don't really mean much anymore, not like it used to did. Its all about the individual now. How he represents himself, the effort he/she put into learning any said art, and the obvious ability to defend ones self.
    Many people don't know this, but Bruce Lee only learned Wing Chun under Ip Man for 2 years I think. He didn't even learn all the forms. And here he was kicking ass and teaching years later in California.
    At the same time, there are many high ranking people that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. Thats a fact. So, these days its about the training and WHAT YOU CAN DO, and not what you say you can do.

    So, whether or not this teacher or that teacher learned from this guy or that.......whether or not this teachers rank is this or this guys is this....... It really doesn't amount to much anymore. Rank is nice, its good to be vaildated for the work you put in, but really its always been about the individual.

    Its about YOU. Not your teacher, or his teacher, or his teachers teacher. Everybody is busy standing on the shoulders of great men or not-so-great men, when in reality, everyone needs to stand ON THEIR OWN TWO FEET.

    I've seen people from arts that most call RUBBISH, able to do incrediable things, as well as kick much butt!

    Its not style of martial art.
    Its not even your teacher (though it plays a role).

    Its you. You get out of martial arts what you put into it. So while everyone is busy undercutting one another as to his style is more 'legit' instead of stay civil, your time would be better invested on working on 'your Hapkido'.

    To me, its all about the training, and the fellowship.

    Anyway, this has been a great discussion. I apologize in advance if I offended anyone with my current view on Hapkido, and anything else I said.
    I hope I added anything worth while to the discussion. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2013
  8. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Valued Member


    Doom! That was excellent! I wish more Hapkidoin would be as positive and clinical (stating what you know as fact) as you were.

    My line of Hapkido does not come from neither Sin Moo or Combat Hapkido, yet I respect both of their masters for what they have done in their schools of Hapkido. There is a lot of negative on both masters and I think that is not good for our art. Just my two cents.

    Thanks again for posting. You may have ****ed off some but like you said, stand on your own two feet and train. Make your Hapkido better. Then you have no time to be ****ed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  9. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    this has been debated ad nauseum on this site and i'm sure others. we've got a guy that used to post here that flat out would tell you that if it's not jungki kwan hapkido, it's not hapkido.

    to me, it just doesn't seem right to say that someone other than choi was the "founder". but what i do i know, i'm only a lowly first dan that hasn't even trained in hapkido for 5 years.

    i just think you can still call choi the "founder" and give ji the credit which he is due too. it just doesn't seem right to say ji was the "founder", although i understand the reason someone might do that. i just don't agree with it.
     
  10. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Valued Member

    My Grandmaster was a direct student under GM Choi. We see Choi as the founder. But I can understand that GM Ji's school's reasoning.
     
  11. doomx2001

    doomx2001 Valued Member

    I agree, they are both founders, but not co-founders. Sometimes to sort through the confusion I will call Choi Yong Sul the father of Hapkido. Other times the founder.

    One could say that most styles of Hapkido are modern, so in that sense, Modern Hapkido, Ji Han Jae is the founder.

    And you could say with Orthodox Hapkido (under Hapkido styles where that didn't change the curriculum under Dojunim Choi any) that Choi Yong Sul is the founder.

    :)

    And thats not being politically correct or anything of the sort. What those two men taught both share the same base of techniques, but from there they deverge from one another.

    Its just a muddled mess over the word "Hapkido" and who has the right to claim it. About the only way I could break it down is to divide it into 'Modern' (Ji Han Jae) and Othodox (Choi Yong Sul). That simplifies it nicely, I believe.

    They were both founders, but one does have to give each the credit they deserve. Without Choi, we wouldn't even be doing any Hapkido. Period. About the only thing coming out of Korea would be TaeKwonDo. LOL!. That is no disrespect. But, just what would happen if Choi Yong Sul never existed.

    Now, Without Ji Han Jae, most of us wouldn't know what Hapkido is. He is the man that spread the art far and wide, and taught the most number of students.
    Choi was too expensive for most people to afford to train with. And rough. LOL!


    I hope one day after everyone does their own research that we can come to more of a consensus. One thing I would like to see is more interviews with students of Choi and Ji from Korea. So much history of Hapkido is being lost with the passing (the death) of many of their students over the years. Sad. We should document as much history as we can.



    But the one thing we can do regardless is no matter what we know as the 'history' of Hapkido, we could, and should, at least treat each person on a individual basis on how they conduct themselves and what they can do instead of relying on just lineage and stories to validate ones self worth.
    That is not directed at any one person, but more or less toward the Hapkido community at large. Also, that is not to make light of Lineage, as it is important, but not as important as to what the individual can do, and how that individual conducts themselves regardless of where they come from.


    I want to see the day where if someone believes that Joe Blow isn't doing real Hapkido, that the said person would take the time to show Joe Blow what he perceives what real Hapkido is and that the two random men would sit, and compare notes. Learn from one another.
    Each individual can't help what their teachers taught them. There are liars in the world, and unfortuantely they are great in number in martial arts or at least in key positions where they refer to themselves as Masters, Grand Masters, Senior Grand Masters or perhaps Dark Overlord of the Universe.
    Whatever the case most people go by what their teacher tells them, as they should. But every individual has to at some point go outside their teachers influence, and find the truth for themselves.

    And as most people go by what their teacher tells them, I think everyone should try not to get so upset because someone has a different opinion or respectfully challenges your beliefs. The key is to do your own research outside of your organizations to have a broader view. Sometimes you'll be surprised by what you learn, and other times you will re-affirm what you already know.


    But again, its all about the training and the fellowship. For without that, we have nothing. :)
     
  12. doomx2001

    doomx2001 Valued Member

    One other note, my personally view is that Choi Yong Sul is the Founder of Hapkido.

    That is, If I had to choose between Ji han Jae and Choi Yong Sul, and ignore the finer points. :)
     
  13. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i think hapkido is a terrific art. and both choi and ji should be credited, as should others.
     
  14. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    The influence you had politically on an organisation, does not make you the founder. Coming up with a name doesn't make you the founder or inventor of something either.
    Ji certainly wasn't the only one who added kicks to Choi's curriculum and hapkido is still more known for it's self defense techniques than for it's kicks.
    This is not to downplay the influence Ji had on the direction that hapkido took. His influence was big. No doubt about that, but he wasn't the only person who was developing hapkido. But by saying it was the work of just one man, you are downplaying the role of others.
     
  15. Sinmoo

    Sinmoo Valued Member

    Some could see it that way, however Choi was only a small town Jujitsu teacher in reality, the skills were excellent of course. He just had only a handful of direct students and one ran with the ball farther then the others and that was Ji Han Jae. His vision, influence and talent propelled HKD the farthest and therefore he can be considered the founder and is by many including the largest Korean Hapkido Organization in the world, the KHF. They consider Choi and Ji on equal standing and both are named the great teachers in their organizations.
     
  16. Sinmoo

    Sinmoo Valued Member

    I will agree many people were tinkering with all kinds of different skills in the early days. However the cream always rises to the top and Ji was the cream.

    Besides just adding some kicks he developed many skills new to HKD. The spin heel kick, scarf or Po Bok Sool, Cane, Kick and punch defenses not found in Choi's style, etc...

    It is easy to want to discount his accomplishments but he is the Brightest Star of them all and everyone knows it though many do not like to admit it.
     
  17. Sinmoo

    Sinmoo Valued Member

    I think many make this mistake. Choi did not found anything his claim was he taught Japanese Yawara. How can that be a founder? I teach HKD or Judo or TKD. I'm a teacher of the art not a founder. Also just changing a name doesn't make you a founder it is still the same thing.

    If you move to a country that does not have that style I could lie and say I invented it but Choi didn't do that he said he learned it in Japan, he never invented it. Choi was no founder he just introduced an art from another country to Korea.

    A founder adapts, invents, formulates, introduces new material, etc... Ji Han Jae did that Choi did not.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
  18. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    unless you can prove that whatever choi called his art was nothing more than daito ryu, then i still don't think you have a case for ji as the founder.

    seemingly, choi adapted what he was supposedly taught by takeda and formulated it into what we would call hapkido, inventing a new style--all your words. i'm not drajj expert by any standard, but every demo video i've personally ever seen looks nothing like hapkido, instead looks like a more formal aikido. i've done both hapkido and aikido and aside from the fact that both have similar grappling techniques, they're very different arts.
     
  19. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    With that kind of reasoning you give many reasons to call Mr. Pelligrini a top notch hapkido player.
     
  20. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Valued Member

    I believe it is this kind of narrow thinking that gives all Kwans of Hapkido a bad name. Of course you are proud of your roots and your Master's accomplishments, so so is all other Hapkidoin.

    There are a lot of masters, both Korean and other races, that have contributed to Hapkido making it the very complete art it is today.

    I really thought some of these narrow minded post went away when the jungki guys stop posting on here. According to them; they are the only true way of Hapkido, which I think is just as ridicules as saying Sinmoo or any other school of Hapkido is the only true way.

    I hate to see how divided this art is. Runs me crazy.
     

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