As someone who has learned from your insights and shared knowledge with on this site, I am glad that you meant no insult to the Grandmaster of our system that a great many people respect (both in CH and around the world in other arts). I think your "rather blunt" style can often be construed as insulting, and with your frequent targets being GM P and Combat Hapkido, there is a great deal of chance of this. As I initially read your comments on GM P, I found them insulting and not something I would expect from another senior martial artist... We have a good crew that visits this site and we all tend to share fairly freely without getting into "too many" of the petty Korean politics that usually crop up. I hope that continues because I sure know that I have expanded my horizons here greatly by being able to share with so many great Hapkido people. So, I just hope people can avoid insulting (intentionally or otherwise) other martial artists. As my mother says "If you can't say anything good... say something constructive". We've been lucky in not having to make the moderators busy in the Hapkido forum (and I am by no means trying to moderate or even suggest ideas about moderating) and I hope it stays like that. I do hope you get a chance to check him (or his senior students) out in person someday. As people say "the proof is in the pudding." Attending a seminar and working with GM P and his assistants is a great experience and in my humble opinion, they are as good as any masters and grandmasters of any systems that I have ever worked with (and that's quite a few).
Hard to describe in writing but here's a few I'd offer: (1) Using the center lock variation where you take it into the lock without ducking under the person and spinning... useful if you are wearing a sidearm to keep it away from the opponent. You cut to the outside instead of going in and under. In traditional hapkido I learned the duck under and spin. (2) The top wrist lock technique where you grab the wrist and the inner elbow and step across the inside , duck under to bring the bent arm up by the ear for a takedown we do by spinning backwards so as not to cross the centerline of the opponent... again protecting a sidearm and/or just staying away from their other hand. (3) Staying vertical on many of the takedowns (and throws) instead of dropping to a knee or leaning over/beside an opponent. We finish standing up so as not to get grabbed and pulled down to the ground. Again, I don't find the technqiues to be "that different", just a bit modified to fit our purposes (esp. military or law enforcement) a bit better. I imagine that individual hapkido schools do the same or similar in classes. I've honestly never counted the "techniques" of either Hapkido system so I don't really know. The biggest difference that I noted in the number of techniques is that where I studied traditional hapkido, the techniques were presented in one manner and the student was expected/guided to apply them into various situations. In Combat Hapkido, the same is true but I think we show more variations of the basic techniques in various situations (at least up to 1st dan). I think most students learn about the same number of (basic)techniques in both systems with the exception of the hapkido styles that have the larger kicking arsenals (which some people may not see as strictly "traditional" anyway).
I always find it interesting that people who trained under so-called traditional masters for a number of years, and then train in CH say the techniques are the same. How can they *not* be the same? Maybe they are the same because that is your background, and you continue to use that background in CH...? What I think would be a useful point of comparison is to take someone who has only trained in CH, and compare how they do with someone who has trained only under a "traditional" school. Austin
Thomas, thanks for the comparisons of the finishes. As for the sheer number of techniques, I agree with you... many of our techniques use the same building blocks, just arranged sometimes a bit differently. Lots of different permutations and combinations.
Not sure if this was directed at me or not. My "so-called traditional master" is named Choi Hyeon-kyu and he has a school in Nonsan, Chungnam, South Korea. He isn't that hard to find and you can look him up next time you are in Korea if you'd like. I wouldn't add the "so-called" personally because he sure is good at what he does. My current Combat Hapkido instructor is Master Robert Gray, who teaches at a school in Potsdam, NY. You are more than welcome anytime to come and train with us and can compare your "traditional" hapkido impressions to what he teaches. Beyond that Grandmaster John Pellegrini is available for seminars and is very accessible. He isn't hard to find, conducting seminars on about 40 weekends per year... The fact is that when I teach Combat Hapkido I do use what I learned in traditional hapkido because they are the same concepts. My instructor has never learned "traditional hapkido" and yet what he teaches is very close to what I have learned previously... the concepts are the same. I have trained with a lot of Combat Hapkido guys from various different schools and I have trained with traditional hapkido guys from various countries and schools... the concepts and basics are the same. Granted, one of the nice things (that attracts me as well) is that in Combat Hapkido you build your core on top of traditional hapkido concepts and skills and then you add whatever you please without your master getting mad about cross training or worrying about losing money from his own school. We spend time integrating new skills instead of avoiding new skills that some school do. Yes, it sure would be interesting... if only someone could decide on what "traditional" means. I don't think there is a consensus on what "true/pure traditional hapkido" is. But since you trained in a "traditional" school, you would be a good person to give it a try. We have a Combat Hapkido school (I'll sit out becuase of my prior experience) and you can come and train for a bit and see how it compares. We could even go to a GM P seminar together if you'd like. Our doors are open (and not that far away). Up for a visit? I guarantee you'll have a lot of fun, learn a lot, and meet some great people.
Greetings, I can alway count on your insight. You are correct I'm very straight foward in what I say, but if you spoke to me face to face or on the phone you would see my tone is not angry, or malicious but I have my opinions as does everyone else. Ask NJ Howard we've meet and trained together.
Ok, I have no Ch training myself. I have trained at a HKD school that was TKD based, one that was Muai Thai based and then under my GM who was a student of Choi's and classmate of Ji, but I have been around. I know a few things from long talks with my GM about Ji and a few of the others that some may see as contraversial as GM Pelegrini. Also look as the issue of Choi himself. My point is they all know what they are doing, and that is what is important. If GM Pelegrini did not then his art would never have been recognised by the Korean Gov. As for GMs, the only recognised 9th dans are Koreans. The 10th dan rank that a few of these people hold is also B.S. They gave it to themselves. My GM refuses to take the 10th. It is a rank that is reserved as a rank of honor, usually for the dead, like GM Choi. As for GM Ji he only reached 3rd dan under Choi. 1/2 of the old HKD GMs where or are in the Korean Mafia. I have been blessed as an Irish/Cherokee ( I refuse to call myself white, and so has many that I come across, Half breed was the most common!) that I was able to develop a relationship that is deeper than that of teacher student. It is a family bond developed after many years. I have sat and talked about the old days and his opinios for hours. And one thing always came therought clear. It is not the rank held, the style of HKD studied, but the understanding of what you are doing that matters. HKD may be one of the most difficult arts to regulate and organize. It may be of of the most progressive and ever changing/developing arts out there, but they all share the truth in their core techniques and principals.
Oh my teacher is old school Korean, a war orphan, and he drives his students hard. If you say I can't he say even harder then. The old school ways were extreemly tough!
That's quite a quote there. I have to say I agree with that completely. I bet I'd like your school and students!
Lol, Thomas and I quoted the same part at practically the same time. Goes to show you how good that statement was Hapkid0ist.
I just moved here to Cali. 4 months agoe, so I don't know my way around very well yet. Tell me where you are. I would like to stop by sometime if I could. I'm in Garden Grove myself.
I appreciate it guys. I have as my ex's have said obsessivly devoted myself to my studies. Not just my techniques, but my understanding of Hap Ki Do, why it is so fractioned, the core concepts, just the understanding of the shared basic techniques and concepts. I have studied almost a dozen arts in my llife. (Military bratt, when we moved it was sometimes impossible to find the same art.) I am just doing my best to understand. All the bickering, squabbling and pettieness just clouds our minds and makes it harder for everyone to see the truthes and to truly understand what they are doing. As well, we give ourselves a bad reputation with all the B.S., more so than anyone else out there. We are tha main reason why some people put us down, avoid our art, I mean look at the B.S. that goes on in the HKD forums at all the different sites. Half the time the HKD sections are locked out for a time, blocked and ridiculed. We are are own worst enemy!
.......It is not the rank held, the style of HKD studied, but the understanding of what you are doing that matters. HKD may be one of the most difficult arts to regulate and organize. It may be of of the most progressive and ever changing/developing arts out there, but they all share the truth in their core techniques and principals......... Greetings, I too whole heartedly agree also, with that being said it still matters how you got rank buying or earning! I guess one mans buying could be another mans earning! Sometimes I really wish there was no politics cause it really all sucks, but everyone who knows a few HKD moves think they know the system these days. It just isn't so! Too many learn a fraction of the system and start mixing it with this and that, and I don't mean only GM P but many others as well do the same thing with varying degrees of commercial success. I have problems with it, no matter what I hear and read I don't really understand it or get it.
Master Bob runs and teaches at his own school as well as running the CA ICHF program. Like he stated he's got a pretty full work day so I don't think he'll mind me answering on his behalf. Mapquest.com says that Garden Grove is about 400 miles away and a 6 hour drive from Seaside. Seaside is a town about 2 hours south of San Francisco. You can click on his name and find a link to his website.
What??? Is this HKD schools within your federation thatyou are charged to "police" or ALL HKD schools. If you are telling me you are supposed to inspect all HKD schools I think that's highly unlikely. Most traditional HKD guys I have been associated with would eaither laugh at you or chase you out of their dojang.
There was a post in this thread that stated that GMP was promoted to first degree in 1989,this is incorrect. GMP founded the ICHF in 1990,at that time he was a 6th degree under GM Myung and had been a student and instructor and toured with GM Myung prior to and during that time. My Instructor,who is also a black Belt level under GM Myung,knew GMP when he,GMP, was a master level(5th degree) in Hapkido and he has video of GMP and GM Myung doing seminars together in the mid to late 80s. GM Myungs book on Hapkido was published before 1989 and in the Book are pictures of GMP wearing a Black Belt and as an Uki. Did GM Myung just promote a fake to 6th degree and had he been taking him along as an instructor because GMP was no good at Hapkido or a fraud? I do not believe that many GMs would misrepresent their art by just promoting fake Hapkidoists to high ranks. Had GM Myung not doubled and tripled his yearly rates over night and not made such high fees for school owners would there even be a Combat Hapkido now? GMP started the ICHF out of a need by he and many others who grew tired of being ripped off by Korean GMs and paying rates that got them nothing in return. GMP did not make his own rank,when he left GM Myung he was a 6th degree,in 1990,he did not claim higher,as he built his Federation he has been promoted over that time and was promoted to 9th degree by GM Seo,so from 6th degree in 1989 with all stages in between,to 9th degree at present does not sound like someone who bought his rank. We had a recent 2nd degree in GM Myungs organization come to our school to train,he had a photo of GMP,GM Myung and His instructor,who is an Instructor in GM myungs Organization and has a school in Langley Virginia. GM Myung was with his masters in the photo,this 2nd degrees Master had nothing but good things to say of GMP. Now are all these people lying ? Are the videos I have seen faked? There are members of this board who train with or under GM Myung,ask him what rank GMP was when he left in 1989-1990. Again,the best thing for those who are interested,curious,from other arts or from more traditional sides of Hapkido,just come to a seminar or attend a class and see for yourselves what it is about,because not to do so and to say what you THINK it is is a waste of time, an invalid conclusion,a Theory,come and try it and get the truth,the facts,see if for yourself and make your mind up as to its pros and cons.
Greetings, You sound like you really understand many of the problems I feel are bad for HKD. Many half baked people become part of the bigger problem when they teach any system and never completed thier own training in. It's a plauge of sorts IMO and these guys create thier own HKD systems on half baked skill and knowledge. I expirience this all the time a students come to train with me with rank from another Instr. who really shouldn't be teaching at all, and you get a person who thinks what they're doing in right cause that's what they were taught when it fact it's not even HKD. When this happens all I can do is try to correct and show them what HKD really should be.
Sorry, I didn't clarify myself. Looking back that was a bit of a broad statement. It is just something my GM wants. I don't go into studios and say I'm so and so here to judge you. I am a quiet observer who just tells my Gm what I observe. And he tells what he is told to the Grandmasters council. Within his studios, it is different. I am still a quiet observer, but its like I have always told all om my students. You never know who is walking through your door. Treat them all as though they are high level practitioners and all Koreans of age as though they are at least a master. I would also like to say, that as of yet this HKD forum site is without a doupt one of the most civil I have run across yet. I am impressed. I hope it keeps this way.
