Combat Hapkido from my perspective

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by Saved_in_Blood, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I had been out of CHKD for about 4 months since my son was born (which most of you know). I decided to look at John Pelligrini's past, his detractors and what I already know of it. Since my Sensei was my neighbor for about 18 years, he allows me to pay a little differently, but I want no free rides, so I still pay the same as everyone else, in that regard I am lucky.

    Anyway, back to the point. I have read (many by traditional HKDists)this or that,how Pelligrini didn't go as far in traditional HKD etc etc etc. However, I wanted to write this from my own perspective. I'm not a high rank, actually I am only working toward my purple belt. I decided yesterday I was ready to go ahead back to class and get back into it. It took only about half of the class, but it did come back to me pretty easily.

    I have learned that there are some very pretentious people, but not just limited to HKD of course... in every art. There is a local guy here that has taught traditional HKD for many many years and is very good at it. I had called him first and the phone conversation was largely a bragging session about himself. "there are about 5000 moves in HKD and I know 4600 of them" I was told. I asked myself... and in real world self defense, does this make any difference? Can you use all 4600, or will you stick with the very core movements that you have done the most and are the most practical?

    The one thing I read that I found to be a joke was that Pelligrini is great at marketing, but his program isn't very good. Most of what I read was by people who really had only "seen videos", and not actually gone to class. I must say, some of the videos can be very lame. Some of the moves are not moves that would be used in anything more than a demonstration and not something i'd use in the real world.

    Something else that people complain about is that "they don't fall the right way with their opponent". Well, let's assume in the real world situations we could possibly find ourselves in that all of our attackers will go along with us and just let us throw them or fall how they are supposed to. Falling is simply to keep each other safe and to get back up and toss the other guy around, no one will just allow you to throw them anyway, part of what I learn about is that the attacker might go down, but he might not.

    A system is only as good as it's teacher. I've seen, and heard many people say. Just because the creator of the system didn't go as far in HKD doesn't mean that the teacher who actually goes through the movements with me isn't good at what he does. In our classes, we analyze the movements and look at angles of attack or possible attack and will adjust our movements accordingly. My Sensei for instance like many of yours here, has over 30 years of MA experience and I do believe that if he felt a system was a joke, he wouldn't do it. He studied traditional HKD for 8 or so years and his brother is very high up in it himself... I do trust him and what he tells me and he's not a guy who will just let you go through something and say "yeah, that's good enough". You go through it over and over again until you've got it down.

    Traditional HKD is beautiful to watch and no doubt that the masters and practicing HKD students are good at what they do (assuming they have had a good teacher), but I don't like the idea that someone else downs a system they don't understand, or worse... never even tried. The exact same thing happened to JKD for years and still does to some extent. I did not start CHKD to impress people, or to use it in competition or anything. I started for self defense, because it's a defensive art that is used with the intention that size will not matter as much vs. a striking sport that for a smaller guy like myself can use tricks to hurt and get away instead of trying to hurt a guy well over my size.

    There are many traditionalists who do not like to see a breakaway from a particular system, but evolution in MA's is what has helped many of us right?

    I'll be the first to admit that CHKD isn't pretty, and isn't meant to be, but don't knock it until you've tried it.

    To anyone out there who has questions about it. I would advise you to find a teacher who can explain why things work, ask about other angles of attack and not just how they are supposed to go but what if's. Constantly think about the movements and how you could use them. I personally love to think about improvisation with the art.

    This is in no way meant to down traditional HKD or any other art. It's only my view and to put some info out for anyone curious.
     
  2. Xanth

    Xanth Valued Member

    Question: Are you talking about a school in Vegas, secondly can you elaborate on "isn't pretty" ? just curious. I have a background in KuK Sool Won and I'm currently studying Aikido, I've considered checking out HKD and CHKD in the vegas area.
     
  3. Guitar Nado

    Guitar Nado Valued Member

    I think that's a pretty good point. Someone told me the other day "A lot of times what matters most for training is the guy standing right in front of you". I think this is true of the instructor running the class, and also the person you are directly practicing with/sparring, etc. I think the skill of those people can be a lot more important than some founder you will probably never meet.

    I hear what you are saying, but I think you need to think critically. There are probably a lot of people with 30 years MA experience that believe totally crazy things. I've definitely met a few that believe things I'm pretty skeptical about. You need to make up your own mind about stuff. I mean no criticism of your instructor or CH in particular here.

    Yeah - I think you are right. A large amount of MAs IMHO are breakaways or combinations of older ones, right?

    Anyways - if you like the Combat Hapkido - then good for you, and have fun with it.
     
  4. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    you obviously like the system, so stick with it. why do you care what other people say?
     
  5. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    off topic, i know....

    so how is the aikido going? if i remember, your wife and kid are also going to the school? how would you compare aikido with ksw?
     
  6. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    I am a "traditional" Hapkido instructor who is not connected with Combat Hapkido. For years and years now, I have been reading forums where people are knocking Combat Hapkido. I've come to think that this started with a small group of people who just have some kind of personal problem with GM Pelligrini.

    I've seen some videos of CHKD people that were not good, and had some technical issues that would make the techniques (in my opinion) unlikely to work, but I have also seen some videos that look very, very good.

    Anyway, from the looks of most videos, the majority of all the hapkido community practices only overly compliant techniques, and produces even high ranked practitioners (some of whom have "cult" status) who's techniques would obviously work only on compliant partners who take grand falls- so take what everyone says with a grain of salt.

    The truth is that I would totally discount the opinion of any hapkido practitioner who does not practice free fighting (using standing joint locks with fully resting partners) ...which is probably over 90% of all Hapkido people in ANY organization.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
  7. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    agreed. this is why i personally left the hapkido dojang i was at, couldn't find enough other practitioners that were willing to free fight--actually i only found one. but "free fighting" improved my techniques a ton, not the least of which my falling technique.
     
  8. Xanth

    Xanth Valued Member




    It's going pretty good. The more I learn of Aikido, the less I would compare it to KSW. The falls are different, where in KSW they were more "hard" in that you fell and usually ended up being pinned in that spot. In Aikido, we tend to roll out of the falls, although there are some pins I've been shown so far. I miss the kicking from KSW and the learning the Japanese sword and staff is definitely different from the Korean versions. I really miss wearing a black uniform, my white Gi gets dirty from all that rolling and I’m constantly washing it to keep it looking good. Testing is different from KSW. I’m taking my second belt test and while it is cumulative as KSW was, it’s not nearly as content intense. I think at Blue belt in KSW you were testing on 32 techniques were in Aikido I’m testing on 5. KSW tends to break out techniques based on the attack, where Aikido focuses on the defense. Example, Tai No Henko Ki No Nagare can be used against a variety of attacks or grabs on the arm. Aikido is not nearly the workout that a KSW was for me. We do stretching, then Ukemi and then focus on the technique of the week. In KSW I would do stretching, kicking and punching drills and then focus on the techniques I need to perfect for my next test. In Aikido I may not work on the material for my next test for weeks, forcing a more home based practice regimen to be necessary to get it right. I like Aikido, but I’m sure it’s right for me.
     
  9. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    cool. thanks for the update. when i went from hapkido --> aikido, i also noticed the less physicality. but then i fell in with, let's say, the more "martial" aikidoka at my dojo, so that really changed the physicality level. i actually got popped in the face a few times before i realized, hey maybe i should give this ukemi business a shot. i liked the japanese sword focus a bit better than the korean, but that's just me. i also noticed what you mention about testing, really don't get into it until it's almost test time. but i also like that a bit better than just concentrating on the next test. for me, i liked the fact that the basics (get off the line, avoid the attack, stay centered, unbalance then perform technique) were always front and center. but i was at a pretty mainline usaf school too.
     
  10. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    No, i'm in Maryland brother. What I mean by not pretty is that when you watch a HKD/Aikido master going through the motions, it's a thing of beauty and effortlessness ... it's like swimming without getting wet as Nazim Richardson said about boxing once lol.

    CHKD however has a lot of nasty little tricks that go with the joint locks... it's made to hurt, break, etc and then get away pretty much. Thomas can elaborate more. I'm not saying there is no technique to the art because my instructors are pretty strict about not taking unnecessary steps with a throw, or being cautious of your position when you are still in range of getting hit and how to keep away from it.

    I believe Thomas said there was only a total of 25 moves in CHKD, but don't quote me on that because my memory is poor. The system itself just piggybacks from one belt to the next though and it makes getting through the belts easier to remember. It's not an easy art, but it's not hard and there is a lot of room for improvisation, which is what I really love about it.

    Don't get me wrong... I still work on my basic punches and such, but they are used in CHKD as well, so it helps me.
     
  11. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Yeah, that's a good point. You cannot stand there and just allow a guy to let you do things when no one in a SD situation is going to do that. For the first several belts it's all about going through the motions and then after that they work up from having multiple attackers come at you slowly and then as you get used to it, it gets faster. That's later on though. Right now I just want to get all of my techniques perfected.

    The one thing we do do in class isn't just the light wrist grabs... we grab each other like someone would do in the real world, it's different to learn how to break lose of someone's grip when they are hardly holding onto you.
     
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Well, sort of. From white belt to 1st dan, you can boil down the locking/grabbing techniques to about 25 kibonsool (basic techniques)... all of which are inserted into the curriculum with different entries and finishes (which may or may not count as separate techniques). But, then you also have to add those to all of our strikes and kicks and such. If you count breakfalls, rolls, parries, blocks, footwork, breathing exercises and such as techniques, the number goes up even more dramatically.
     
  13. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Yeah, I wasn't really counting the falls, kicks, punches, etc. They are one of those things to me that are an easier aspect of it to remember.
     
  14. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I am somewhat at "odds" with the title; "Combat Hapkido". Sorry to come off brash, but why the additional prefix; "Combat"?
     
  15. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    Traditional hapkido includes breaks, rips, and other "nasty tricks" as well.
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Yep - this is one of those old things and is one of the questions that generally stirs up 'traditionalists'.

    The short answer is that when GM P put together his art, he used traditional Hapkido as his base operating system and then applied a focus towards a 'reality-based self defense' curriculum. To do so, he stripped out some techniques he didn't think were the best for self defense and the brought in concepts and techniques that he felt would be useful (e.g., trapping,ground grappling, stick and knife, etc) from other arts (and gave credit to where they come from).


    By doing this, he felt that it represented a departure from 'traditional' Hapkido so he wanted to change the name, however he wanted to acknowledge that Hapkido is the core of his system... so "Combat" was added to differentiate it from traditional and to imply the goal of being ready for practical self defense. Of course, this name upset some traditional HKDists as well - some felt that it wasn't Hapkido anymore and criticised the use of 'Hapkido' and some felt that this implied that traditional Hapkido wasn't ready for 'practical self defense' and they were offended. To be honest, he would have been roasted for whatever name he chose.

    The name choice was to honor the foundation and to indicate what the mission is for the art.
     
  17. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I'm not talking about those.
     

Share This Page