Hello folks i was wondering do you guys think combat hapkido could be looked upon as JKD?Or am i totally not knowing what JKD is?lol.I never researched it but i assumed from the bit i do know that its bruce lee's "using know way as way" belief.Maybe im wrong please correct me if i am. :Angel: thanks, wally
:Angel: your wrong .. its "using NO way as way " :love: "not know way as way" and I went into Hapkido thinking it was close to JKD .In my expirance I believe there are many similar concepts and applications . But in Hapkido there is a "Way" to follow . I do not practice " Combat Hapkido" so I cant comment on the rest of it . I am sure someone will . BackFistMonkey
Thanks for the info Backfistmonkey.Thats what i mean to say "using noway as way" but i spelt no wrong lol sometimes i am so stun.lol. wally :Angel:
Combat hapkido is hapkido,that is the core and the majority of its make up. The differences are slight: Combat Hapkido has changed some of the throws from High,over the top ,throws which turn many practioners,especially older ones,off,to more around the body,using the thrower as the pivot point. Combat Hapkido teaches kicks from low to high but the focus is on kicks from the waist down,some original hapkido GMs are going back and or have always kept these kicks in as they are more Real than the competiton point kicks. As an entry ,catch,capture or defelect,Combat Hapkido has included the use of wing Chun/JKD hand techniques like the sensitivity drills and the pass /Trap/Strike,this enhances easier tyransfer and or capture of the limb to apply joint locks. Any other arts you see talked about with combat hapkido are additions to ,if the student,teacher or school want to include them,this being the Ground grappling and FMA. (the short stick and cane are hapkido weapons,GMP just brought in the cane Master to reenforce and expound on the cane usage and enable practioners to get cane Master certified if they desire)
see Wally , I told you WHAM ... a good post appears.... I love my Hapkido brothers and sisters here @ MAP . As for the spelling ... no sweat man I knew what you meant , and thought I would point out the mistake playfully . You seem good natured enough to understand and besides it made a good segway to the real point of my post . And if you hadnt noticed ... we dont have very many spelling/grammer Nazi's on MAP its more about the post's content than pretty delivery . Take this post for example ... I havent really said anything . Be Well Train Hard BackFistMonkey
Greetings, How did GM Pelligrini become proficient enough in wing chun or JKD to meld it with the HKD core? Is he a licensed Instr under any of the leaders of these systems? To be a solid Wing Chun or JKD player takes many years. In the Insosanto Academy it takes 7-10 years full time to be a Assistant level Instr. and he makes no exceptions for anyone. Also there are very few if any pivot point throws in HKD, Judo, Jujutsu. Sweeps, reaps, hip, shoulder, drop, throws are part of these arts. Pivot throws may work somethimes but generally only happen by accident when a novice player flubs a real attempt. Why does a HKD master of any kind need seperate certification from Cane Masters? Cane being the most popular weapon in HKD is a core part of any schools curriculum. A HKD Instr or Master is already profient with the cane and several other weapons and needs no further certification for the weapon. To me this is like saying you need a certification for kick tech or wrist locks. When are you people going to wake up to just another money making gimmick. How about bo staff masters or nunchaku masters? :bang: It's unbelievable the majority of CH practioners are eat this non-sense up.
Sigh... and here I thought you were getting better Stuart. What's your problem with GM P? Jealous much? He's a licensed instructor of JKD. There's you opening your mouth again without knowing much. Do you force your 5'3" 110 lb female practitioners to throw a 6'2" 250 man over their shoulder? Or how about any practitioner with weak knees? Just curious. Please explain why it's so bad to learn from someone on the caliber of Mr. Shuey. How about you compare your resume to his "18 world and national titles in the Masters Weapons divisions using the cane". Now who would should someone pick to learn from? Grandmaster P isn't one of those arrogant old school masters that think he is the be all and end all of martial arts. While he is very skilled in cane he realizes that Mark Shuey can bring things to 'a whole nother' level. The same can be said of grappling. Carlson Gracies expertise in this area does nothing but enhance Combat Hapkido's ground game. What's unbelievable are supposedly "Master" Hapkido practioners who sit on martial art forums doing nothing but bashing things they know nothing about. If you were so superior to GM Shuey and GM P that you seem to imply so often here then why aren't you as well regarded as either in the Martial Art community? When's the last time you graced Black Belt's cover? I've been staying away from you on purpose Stuart. Even when I wanted to chime in (Hapkido punches) but if you're gonna sit there and attack GM P then expect others to defend him.
Greetings Yes please stay away if you want to argue or quote me out of context. I'll discuss with you but not argue. I'm questioning the developement of the CH tech and the GM P background in JKD & WC, sorry you don't like it. Who said anything about being better that anyone else. I questioned the marketing of "cane certification". What purpose does it serve? In HKD when you reach the rank where canes taught and complete the training you now know the cane, or the sword, or the dan bong, that's it. We don't market each seperate weapon, what the purpose does it serve except another fee or peice of paper? As I already said it's a given any HKD master or instr learned how to use the cane HKD most popular weapon. If I'm wrong please enlighten me here. To answer you question here. .........'Do you force your 5'3" 110 lb female practitioners to throw a 6'2" 250 man over their shoulder? Or how about any practitioner with weak knees? Just curious....... I have a 100lb women that can indeed throw a 200lb man maybe heavier she's only a yellow belt around 30 yrs old. Good tech used at the right time really means alot. However I've had the problem with students as you mentioned and I would modified a tech for a person who couldn't learn the regular tech as an exception for an individual not a rule.
The only think you can get with his program is Apprentice Instructors certification if you past it. You need to go every year to Camp and train to learn more new material or your out. I know this beacuse Pedro's is one his students and trust me he train so many times with him. Anyway I accept your of markering point because It's true. But you can't discredited everyone specially Vunak. Vunak is one of the best Inosanto students. I'm not saying this, time and history said it. Bu the way everytime you train with the Hapkido Masters of the KHA or Sin Moo Hapkido they train you for free??? mmmmmmm I don't think so, specially Dojanim and don't get me wrong he is comingo to PR and I'm going to train with him and with GM Myung. I remember a time that there was a couples of Hapkido Masters and came to the island and certificated a dozensTKD instructors in Hapkido and where are they know??? Where are they certification??? The bottom line is that really you don't need to be with World Prestigious Organization. You only need a good instructor like my ex. Sabunim Rafael Martinez (retired) has when he was in Korea, liked he was and is and like my instructor now is (Vega). We always said: You want to be good in something you need to practice, practice and practice. Is like music you don't practice you don't know how to play and I'm saying this because I'm a musician too. BE WATER MY FRIENDS!!!!
On the origianl topic: Combat Hapkido is not JKD. I can see the similarities though. Combat Hapkido is a core system based on Traditional Hapkido, modified to longer be "traditional", and then "customized" with subsystems like trapping, pressure points, grappling, weapons, etc to fit the individual users without having to be locked within the confines of "one system". In my opinion, it's a great open system filled with great people whom I love and respect. Take a look at www.ichf.com/Staff.htm and click on the pictures for bios of the staff. One of the main things that GM P does (that I really love) is surround himself with awesome people who have the very highest credentials. He has these people do the development and integration of their skills with his skills and he learns from them and then helps to package it up into a comprehensive program. Currently, for example, GM P is revising the FMA section through Master Julius Melegrito... so they spend lots of time together integrating the skills and doing seminars to spread the ideas (as well as videos). GM P is "instructor certified" in JKD and has access to some of the best around to help him. In my opinion, the JKD elemenst that are brought into Combat Hapkido are at a more elementary level and are designed more to provide drills, trapping, and hand speed training... all of which marries up nicely with Hapkido concepts. Again, we can do this in Combat Hapkido because we aren't Traditional Hapkido and have never advertised it as such Actually you can certify for cane qualification through the ICHF as well. However, GM P's work with Canemaster Shuey has been very beneficial and Canemaster Shuey is truly an amazing practitioner ( I know, I've worked with him a couple of times and was his demonstrator model once!) and GM P allows/encourages his students to certify through Canemasters, which is a tougher and more in depth level of work than the ICHF has. Again, he is farming out the material to the experts even though he has a solid level himself. In Traditional Hapkido, yes. In Combat Hapkido, it is not a requirement. We have the option of not doing it, of doing it through the ICHF, or through Canemasters. We look at the various wepaons and subsystems as being optional... with oiptional certification. All Combat Hapkido students learn the core curriculum, which has Hapkido as its foundation, but with enough changes to no longer be "Traditional" (and is not advertised as such) The ICHF is a federation designed to make money. The money goes to pay for the salaries of the people it hires... some of the top people in the world, all of whom help make the art better and better. The money also goes into developing new products, better tapes, promoting schools, and for advertising as well for keeping testing prices down and providing ab great support network for many people around the world. The ICHF is for adults who are making their own choices about what they want to study. We can choose what we wnat to focus on and what we think is best for us. As with any good business, you pay for expert instruction and product development. As an adult with many years and lots of money invested in the martial arts I can honestly say that I have never regretted a single penny I have spent through the ICHF and would have paid double for everything. If that money has been spent making GM P wealthy... I don't care, because he has given back the time, material, teaching, and most of all support that few other heads of organizations do. And, even with all that money, he still answers the phone himself and takes orders for products and answers questions. I know because I just called not too long ago and spoke with him. This is one of the saddest things I have read from you, a master whom I have grown to respect (even when we disagree) and this hurts the most. I believe I will leave this topic now so as not to witness any more of this.
The point of Combat hapkido is to make it street usable and something that more than just fit young men want to do. It was developed to allow the young ,the old,the fit,the unfit and people with physical ailments to be able to do and use it to defend themselves. (the high kicks,high throws are not needed,nor doable by everyone to make hapkido work) Even today many Jujitsu schools are reducing the throws done in a night and offering variety of throws because today most workers do not want to get thrown and get hurt evrey training day. The incorporation of wing Chun/JKD trapping was to allow for a better transition to a grab or deflection,to teach a trap ,to use close in deflections and attacks and pin the limb to the body. The Cane is taught, and was taught, in the system before Mark Shuey,but many people wanted more and since Master Shuey has a Great product with a Great following,it allows for the Combat Hapkido Practioner to obtain a certification that others,outside of Hapkido will know. Soon there will be a Shuey cane master course available to nursing homes and senior citizen centers,so that will be more marketable than saying you are a hapkidoist,like people know the weapons of that art. (Cane Master is a pretty specific title ) With people in the arts going to FMA and Ground Grappling it is GMPs idea to provide quality instruction to those who seek it and wish to teach it and hold students,rather than lose them to other schools. (once you have them why lose them to someone else when you can keep them by being able to give them what they want?) There are other Hapkido Masters incorporating many of the same arts,(JKD,FMA,and BJJ) like Master Fabroiz?? spelling? If you can expand your knowledge and can point to getting your instruction through great masters of specific arts,you are more marketable,if you are a teacher that is a plus. As GMP says,make your school "One Stop Shopping",keep those you have ,expand your knowledge and draw in others. How many Tae Kwon do schools offer some basic grabs and call it Hapkido? Everyone is trying to grow their market ,and if they teach, they want to make Money. Look at Tiger Schulman schools and his membership,why are his schools so large,because he offers variety. Grow beyond the 10-15 people that most hapkido, specific, schools have. Combat hapkido offers this growth if the teacher or student decides they want it. (offering more arts ,or a wider variety in training ,is better than making the dojo a day care or a summer school/camp to pay the bills)
Thomas the last I want to do is hurt your feelings I respect you very much, so for that I'm very sorry. I feel a major disappointed of my own with ANY system leader selling MA for money. Personally I see much of the MA business flawed and an embarassment. The selling of cheap training, Instr cert. after 12 hours of lessons. Your a teacher so you know better that to justifiy that. Even if a Cert. to teach just the bare bones basics which is the most important stuff IMO. I really didn't fully understand that there's no limit to anything that done under the NON-TRAD BANNER it's more liberal than even I expected. If being traditional means paying you dues in a system, not selling certifications, learning a complete system in mind, body and sprit, etc., I'm very happy to be called Traditional. I see no problem with any teacher or association earning a dream living, more power to them. Again my sincere appologies.
C'mon HKD guys....know your HKD history... JKD is Bruce Lee's answer to HKD. Ironic, isn't it? Austin
Thank you for the apology. I do accept it. I am glad it was just a misunderstanding on my part. Hopefully we can get back to discussing other topics now. I know where you are coming from on programs and people who sell certification and stuff for $$$ without putting the time in. There are people of all arts who do this (even Traditional Hapkido) and I have no respect for them. I like the way GM P runs his as a balance between making money and providing good training and support. Moo Sool
Dear Jim I own a CaneMasters cane and the best one of several I own. What took me by surprise is why does any HKD Master needs to out source a cane certificate from Cane Masters? That sounds very strange to me and still does. I'm hearing from you and Max that CH is more user friendly to the average person and requires much less or easier type training to learn it. Good for small women, etc. I'm the 1st to admit it's very hard to get students who are willing to do what it takes to learn the real system of HKD. CH HKD may be geared for the modern life style and can't say anything negative about teaching more SD to more people that great. But then lets call a spade a spade maybe we should call it "Simplified Hapkido" or "Hapkido for everyone" something along those lines. Sin Moo HKD is real "Combat Oriented" HKD, Doju Ji believes that HKD is for combat and is taught that way from the techniques to the mind and so on. True it's not for everyone but HKD is what it is.
As I wrote earlier, GM P can do it also but prefers to have a better cane practitioner take it over so that GM P can focus on stuff he does better. On the same note, people who are interested in the cane should check out the ICHF's two volume set on the cane. It's very accessible and provides a great foundation for the cane in volume 1. Volume 2 builds on that. Highly recommended for anyone interested in the cane. Canemasters' tapes (GM Shuey) cover the same foundation and then go even farther, especially into using the cane for exercise and self defence. The biggest difference I see is that the ICHF's cane program seems to be designed to get the material across at a basic and/or intermediate level for a student to use as a great addition to the core system of Combat Hapkido. Canemaster Shuey can do that as well, but also offers the options of exploring the cane even to the point of the cane becoming your primary system. Little differences in philosophy and application but both programs are very good, in my opinion. Again, the real key to Combat Hapkido is the flexibility. The core system is set up to be very accessible and easy to get in to. For this reason, seminars and workshops and even 2 or 3 hours a week can help a student become fairly proficient in basic self defence. They can add on other elements to fit their needs as well (cane, kife, grappling, etc.). So, in this way, Combat Hapkido can be a very easy system to get in to and to develop an elementary system of self defence, whetehr for a person with little time to spare or as a supplement to another "full time" style. In my opinion, Traditional Hapkido normally doesn't lend itself to this, prefering to follow a stricter curriculum and full time devotion to the art. On the other hand, for students who wish to focus on Combat Hapkdio" and devlop it into their primary art, the means are there as well. The core curriculum is fairly basic and students practice it regularly. They then add on components basied on their (or their intructor's) interests... and there are so many options that I know that I will never master (or even learn) all of the available options in Combat Hapkido. I must choose areas to focus on, areas to cover in a general way, and areas to put offf for a while. This flexibility is what makes Combat Hapkdio a good fit for beginners and people with little time and a good fit for people who want it as a primary art. This is ground we've covered before. GM P specifically added the word "Combat" to differentiate his art from traditional hapkido in the hopes of preventing traditionalists from constantly bashing his art which he nevers advertises as traditional hapkido It's funny because if he had just made up a whole new name, like "Pellegrini-do", there would be lots of traditionalists saying "well, it's actually hapkido but he changed it a bit." If you want to call your system "Sin Moo Combat Hapkido", go ahead. I don't think a name really matters half as much as what you actually do in the classes.
Hello Thomas, as you know i personally don't really care one way or the other what people choose to call things or what they choose to study. BUT you have to admit by adding the name *combat* in front of hapkio certainly implys that hapkido itself is not *combat* oriented. my major probem with c.h. is this. other than that i have no problems with people who find value in it studing it.
