In Thai boxing you are not allowed to use hip throws from the clinch. You can kind of get a false sense of security that you are safer in the clinch because the rules limit what you and your opponent are allowed to do while locked up. The Thai clinch is both grappling and striking. At first, during what would be described as "swimming", the clinch is 90% striking. Once you are locked up, the clinch could be 90% grappling... however, since the rules in Thai boxing don't allow many things, it becomes more 50% grappling and 50% striking. The "swimming" phase is where one should spend a lot of time developing the Thai clinch for MMA, IMHO. In this phase, you are fighting for dominate inside position and you are using striking to stun and unbalance the opponent. Before applying a head clinch, for example, it is preferred that you strike the side of the opponent's head or knee them to stun them momentarily so that your clinch can immediately break their posture. So a key factor for success is to come into the clinch already taking their posture and then it is a matter of keeping them off balance while you do your damage or take down. The second phase can be described as "locked up" with your opponent. This is dead even in Thai boxing and can go either way. That is why the "swimming" phase is so important to come into any locked up position already in dominance and keeping that dominance. The locked up phase is where MMA and Thai boxing can differ. In Thai boxing, it is an even position and can lead to exchanging of blows, almost a 50% grappling and 50% striking situation. However, in MMA, the locked up position very quickly can turn into 90% grappling and 10% striking. Therefore, grapplers are going to have a huge advantage over conventional strikers once the clinch gets to a locked up phase. My advice is if using Thai clinch in MMA, avoid locking up as much as possible. Stay in the swimming phase, only lock up briefly to get some damage in and then go back to swimming phase. If you do end up locked up with your opponent, Thai clinch won't help you as much as grappling. IMHO.
Besides the head lock clip that I had put up, here is another "arm wrap". [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta7Ant4d7pQ"]matrix - YouTube[/ame] Excellent point. If you are a grappler, you want to lock up with your opponent ASAP. That is the power of "arm wrap" to reduce your opponent's mobility. Since a grappler and a striker may think differently, it's always better to look at clinch from both angles. I know exactly what you are talking about. The single collar tie is always my favor too. But I'll get my single collar tie (upper lapel hold) after I have obtained my "arm wrap (sleeve hold)". The single collar tie is easy to get. It's the major hand "arm wrap (sleeve hold)" that's very hard to get in an exchange punches environment. After you have obtained his leading arm control, you pull your opponent into you, deflect your opponent's punch with your free arm, you are in your single collar tie position. As long as you can get your major hand, the minor hand is easy to get. The "over-the-back belt grip" was also my favor during my head lock developing stage. Since it doen't work well in no-gi environment, I try not to depend on it too much.
What if your opponent goes for a knee or trip as you pull him in, instead of your expected punch? I still think either you're misunderstanding how hard a full Thai clinch is to break, or I'm misunderstanding your defence. I tried to pin an arm down, using the 'combing the hair' defense with the other today, against a 5'6 woman with little experience. I couldn't break her clinch with that defense. There's a variety of ways out of the Thai clinch, exploiting things like leverage, gaps, and balance. Some of the defenses even turn parts of the attackers grip against them, but your defence seems to rely on having enough of a gap to maneuver the 'combing' arm inside I believe? Thats the only way I can seem to get it working anyway. Unfortunately, a semi-decent clinch does not give such gaps. Again, I re-iterate, I have used this clinch with success in MMA sparring. Pulling an opponent around by his head, while keeping him hunched over, gives him a lot to worry about. Your defense would work fine as shown in your vid, if it is applied before the attacker actually grabs you. There is a quicker variation of this with MT itself, where you pull down on one arm from above, around the elbow region, whilst pushing up on the other from below the elbow region. The pull/push movement should be circular (both pull and push also circle in towards your own centre). Combined with stepping away, this leaves the attacker clutching at air and usually off balance, with yourself side on to him, ready to attack. However, this is not a a defense from inside a thai clinch, its a pre-emptive defense for when somebody tries to clinch you.
An upper cut between your opponent's arms should be able to get your right arm between your opponent's clinching arms. You can then use comb the hair after that. May be when you did your right hand "comb the hair", you did not "pull" your right shoulder back hard enough. It's a whole body rotation against that gribbing hand. In Chinese wrestling, it's called "tearing - rip apart". If you can spin your body in such a way that your opponent, your left front shoulder, and your right back shoulder are all in a straight line, I gurantee you can break your opponent's left grip. It should be a quick sharp explosive break (like you try to rip apart a piece of cloth) and not a constant speed break. The breaking force comes from "pulling your shoulder back" and not from your solo arm move. It depends on whether your head lock will be successful or not. If your - MT instructor tells you that if your opponent can break your clinch, you are no good. - grappling instructor also tells you that if you can't break a clinch, you are no good. Who is right and who is wrong? Is it easier to break a Judo guys grip when all his fingers are digging into your Judo qi, or is it easier to break a MT clinch in a no-gi environment? There are many skills that can be used to break grips. The grip breaking skill is seriousely trained by a grappler in the gi environment. It's a basic bread and butter for all grapplers.
You are talking about "arm tucking". The main purpose of this is temporarily guide your opponent's arm to a spot that won't be in move moving path when you try to enter and obtain that "minor hand'. The "arm tucking" that use "hook" principle is more powerful (you have more control) than the "comb hair" that use "glue" principle.
I think so. Except that the top hand is controling the elbow instead of the wrist. The control of the wrist to keep the arm straight is better leverage than the elbow but it is also easier to counter because it doesn't scale well against someone taller. If you are taller, for example, you can control the wrist, but if you are shorter, it does not work well trying to raise your hand up high. The control of the elbow is safer; however, it makes it harder to get your opponent to keep his arm straight. You basically want the opponent to keep his arm straight as you push his elbow through his face and "stir" him using his arm like a spoon in a soup pot. IME.
I agree that the elbow control is better than the wrist control. But sometime, it's easier to get your opponent's wrist (because it's closer to you) than to get his elbow (further away from you). All the wrist controls are "temporary"anyway. One simple drill that I like is to hold my right hand on my left wrist. When my left hand tries to break my own right grip, my right hand slide along my left forearm to reach my left elbow. I can do this when I watch TV or in passenger seat. It's a lot of fun. Who said that you can't train your grappling skill wiithout partner? Has anyone ever played chess game against yourself?
Yeah, I saw you were focusing on the bottom hand but I was focusing on the top hand. The whole motion is like turning a steering wheel. There is a reason for this. In Thai boxing, if you use the bottom hand for a throw, this could be considered a hip throw and thus illegal. If using the top hand for the takedown, this can be considered head control and thus is legal. It is not all or nothing though, bottom hand applies either a straight arm lock or a bent arm coil lock. Top hand applies take down through the head and "stirs the pot". So both are important. IMHO.
Thanks! A short sentence has said everything that I want to say. The only difference is in Chinese wrestling, the bottom hand is more important because with bottom hand alone, if your drop yourself, you can drag your opponent down. With top hand alone, you can't do that. In the following clip, you can see that the top hand is not doing anything. http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/hanemakikomi.htm After I saw you mentioned "top hand", I had modified my post. Because my Chinglish, I have to edit my post several times. Sometime I can't keep up with the response. Do you know why "hip throw - the mother of all throws" is not allowed by MT?
Neither is right or wrong in that case, as being able to keep a clinch applied, or breaking an opponents clinch should be possible for both people, in all situations. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Thai clinch can't be broken - I've mentioned already there are several ways that I know of to break it, and probably a lot more that I don't know also. The defense you show in the last picture is pretty much what I'm talking about, seems a similar defense to me. This is a pre-emptive defense though, it does not work once you are already clinched, it only works if you react as your opponent reaches for you. With regards to the uppercut and pulling of shoulder etc, I think Sifu Ben is right in that you are considering it a static position. Once I'm fully clinched, I have no chance to throw the uppercut, or to pull my shoulder back. Why? Because my head is bent down by force, I'm off balance, and Im being dragged around. My focus is on keeping my legs underneath myself, and my balance central so I can't be thrown too easily. If I cant even straighten my head, how am I to pull my shoulder back? I can not apply any force to an uppercut either. I could of course get my hand through the gap between arms and hit the other guys chin, but the force would not be enough to move his head at all from such a position. Landing the uppercut before your posture is broken down is good and possible, the problem comes in that the gap between being grabbed and having your posture broken is very small, less than a second often. I have no idea why MT doesnt use hip throws (I would guess because its a striking art that likes to discourage most grappling), but like I said Ive used this clinch for MMA, which does allow all kind of throws, and had no problem controlling my opponent. I have also had MT training partners that use hip throws, for whatever reason.
Who knows why rules for competitive martial arts are the way they are. There are lots of different reasons why some techniques may be allowed but others not. I'm fairly sure though that some rules are developed over time for safety reasons. Here is an example of something illegal in both Thai boxing and in Judo competitions; however, it appears to be legal in wrestling: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWNEXNdI4zs"]Wrestling Instruction Head Lock Takedown by, Carl Adams - YouTube[/ame] I'm drawing a blank on whether this take down is legal in MMA or not. Anyone know?
All TD's are legal in pro MMA, though some amateur places disallow slamming. The headlock TD is not seen much in MMA primarily due to the danger of exposing the back, leaving one vulnerable to a fight-ending choke, which is illegal under amateur wrestling rules. Some guys, mostly Judoka, are good enough to hit it without endangering themselves.
completly legal, remember seeing it used in a WEC rerun just last week its not seen as much in submission wrestling and MMA for the reasons fuzzy mentioned, controlling the arm is the key to not having your back taken too easily and to hitting the takedown correctly, but its still a big issue. I like the takedown and both my wrestling and TCMA teacher are big on it, but when submissions are allowed you do have to be careful using it
When your opponent's free left arm surround your waist, that will give you a chance to apply over hook.
Whether you can break your opponent's grips or not is "relative" and not "absolute". The reason is simple. If your opponent has good "listening" ability, he can detect your intention and interrupt your power generation in the early stage. The following clip shows how fast the grip fight can be. I will never consider it as static positions. Many grip fight skills can be seen here. You can also see how a grappler throws his shoulder back to break the grip. It also shows how difficult it is to get into a double hands clinch if your opponent is an experience grappler. If your opponent can get both hands on you, either you let him to do that, or you are not a very good grappler. You try to achieve the following situation: - You have 1 grip on your opponent when he has no grip on you. - You have 2 grips on your opponent when he has only 1 grip on you. If your opponent has 2 grips on you, you should break it ASAP with all cost. Old Chinese saying said, "It's OK to lose in throw. It's not OK to lose in grip fight". When you lose in grip fight, you are almost lose in throw (because with your opponent's grip advantage over you, he can throw you but you can't throw him). [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8fLJzb8XzY"]sc grip fight - YouTube[/ame]
Fair point, and I know how quick grip fighting can be. Indeed for an experienced grappler it is very viable to stop grips occurring. I believe you are a grappler? If so it certainly explains why you would use a defense to prevent the grips. I have a striking base, with a little cross-training, and to be honest with you its the minority of people that prevent grips in my MT spars. Against anybody with the ability to prevent that, I tend to approach in a different manner entirely, working to clinch position. I certainly accept your defense is possible before the grips are applied.
The grip fighting is the same as what I called "swimming" and called "pummeling" in wrestling. It is where in Thai boxing clinch that striking and grappling skill sets overlap. Meaning that the same skill set applies to both, the only difference is intention. I believe it is also the skill set used in trapping.
