This still mentions using two arms to control the arms, plus another to control the head/get the takedown. Additionally, in a full thai clinch, the elbows are supposed to be pressed into your chest anyway. It gives the attacker a better grip, and more control over your head. If you push down on the elbows in this clinch, your head will be lowered further to the floor, and your balance will be worse than if you could stand straight. The knee shots are also now open to the face/head. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean here, as I can't see how it would work in a positive way.
Yes I was. I can move them around and affect their center of balance which makes it easier to strike them or switch into different entries for takedowns?
You can use 2 arms to pin both of your opponent's arms. Since you don't have any free arm left, it won't do you any good. Here is a picture: In the following "training" clip, you can see that you only need to "pin" one of your opponent's arm and use it as your "major hand". You then break his other hand (there are many ways to do that) and then get your "minor hand" at the same time. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQaknQfxZUA"]pulling - YouTube[/ame] In the following "demo" clip, the moment that your opponent put his hand on your neck, the moment that you spin. Again, if he puts both hands on your neck at the same time, you have to "pin" one and break the other. You can see that your opponent's "single collar tie" can be to your advantage (unless I misunderstand the definition of "single collar tie"). [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XquPIhsXs5o"]Chang pull4 - YouTube[/ame]
These clips do not show a full Thai clinch though. The first one appears to be a guy placing his hand on the others shoulder. The second appears to be a hand behind and below the neck. The hands in a Thai plum should not be on the neck, as this gives you very little control over your opponents head. They should instead be covering the back of his head, giving you leverage and control over his head - which in turn gives control over his balance and direction. Tried checking for a pic of a better clinch, found a few but decided to post this vid instead. The guy explains where your hands should be, note the elbows digging in on the chest when he pulls his opponents head down. Its this curling action that would be set off by pulling down on the elbows when you're trying to defend against this clinch. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0Zq_LvHXPE"]Learning the Muay Thai Clinch - YouTube[/ame] There are several counters/escapes to this clinch position, likely a lot more than I have seen/heard of. However, none of them lead to a direct takedown, unless you can catch your opponents leg as he throws a knee - this is easier said than done however, as you are vulnerable to knees, elbows, punches and takedowns when on the defensive in this clinch.
In both cases the "thrower" would be punched in the face PRIOR to the engagement - remember we are talking MMA clinch/grappling not "pure" grappling. The collar tie ups were also clearly demo based - a little loose within MMA Now THIS is clinch work as it should be done in MMA youtube link of Anderson Silva HL reel removed...too much swearing and racial profanities. Otherwise a perfect example use of clinch in MMA
All you need is to use your left hand to pin his right arm, use your right hand "comb your hair" to break his left hand control, then followed by a "head lock". It's your responsibility to make your opponent's full Thai clinch into 1/2 Thai clinch.
If I'm using single collar tie I'm already pinning my own elbow to their chest. What you're suggesting doesn't cause me any trouble.
It takes both major hand and minor hand to throw your opponent. In Judo that's sleeve hold and upper collar hold. The major hand (control your opponent's leading arm) is hard to obtain in a kicking and punching environment. Your single collar tie is exactly where your opponent wants your arm to be. It will help him more than it will help you. Your opponent will be very happy if you just "offer your leading arm to him". The similiar example will be, if you kick at your opponent, your opponent can shoot at your leg to take you down. He doesn't have to shoot in very far because you have helped him to close the distance and also "offer your leg". If you are a grappler, your highest priority is to wrap your opponent's arm (major hand) instead of single collar tie (minor hand). You should always go from major to minor and not the other way around.
if this was true, no one would be hitting the single or double neck tie up in MMA, most of the fighters have either a wrestling or judo background and would apparently love to work of that clinch, yet what you are talking about simply is never seen: no one rarely or ever pulls of those throws you showed in MMA, or submission wrestling come to think of it. How do you account for that? I mean grappling is grappling that plum grip and the single neck tie have been around for decades how come no one has thought of this counter or used it?
If you are a grappler, you should be good at your "comb the hair" (in boxing it's called crazy monkey). That's your bread and butter to deal with punches. If you are not good at it, you should have no business in MMA game. We should look at clinch game both from a striker point of view as well as from a grappler point of view. To a striker, clinch can offer you an opportunity to knee your opponent. To a grappler, your clinch is exactly what he wants. It all come to your skill vs. your opponent's skill. Nothing is guranteed.
I'm sure we will see it more an more in the near future. The throwing skill is not that important in the current cage fight rules.
actually the takedown for a grappler is very important in MMA, if this move sets up a takedown so easily wouldn't it be logical to assume people would be using it all the time? certainly beats getting kneed unconscious as you try other escapes which arent working for you But what about free style wrestling?Or submission wrestling both make extensive use of the single collar tie how come we dont see your defence in those environments?
There are over 400 major throws (both sweep and block categories contain more than 30 different throws). The number of minor throws can be as many as the number of hair on a cow's body. The throwing art is a big field. Nobody can master everything in their life time. The pulling, hand blocking are very common skill in the field of the Chinese wrestling. Just try it in your next game. It may become one of your tools someday. http://www.56.com/u96/v_MjE1NDgwMjk.html [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY0h4XlXF7I&feature=player_detailpage"]手別 Shou Bie - YouTube[/ame]
This is one method that you can break your opponent's double neck holds. It will also give you a side mount advantage after you have taken your opponent down. You can also just hold both fists and hit upward toward at your opponent's chin, use your triangle forearms as a wedge to break your opponent's double neck holds. When you don't have jacket or gi, your opponent's double neck holds is very easy to break apart. In grappling, to be able to break your opponent's clinching if needed is a very important skill to have. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVf5wMNlQS4"]head lock1 - YouTube[/ame]
No it wont YKW. Once I get a hold of their head or neck I'm controlling their balance and punching them in the head repeatedly. I can defend throws and if they turn away I can slap on a body lock, punch them in the side of the head, knee them in the face, or drop fro a double or single. You'd be right if this was grappling only but it's not. Single collar tie gives me a ton of options and openings to use differeent tools ESPECIALLY if they try to escale or throw.
Exactly. Not to mention there are some very good strikers who make great use of e single collar tie while they're mashing their opponent's face into mulch.
I would hve thought your highest priority would have been tog et mast the arms and get direct access to the body? by wrapping do you mean an overhook? because if so you have just eliminated all your lower body attacks on that side, if you mean both overhook and underhook then i would probably agree some what BUT it stil doesnt change the fact that the collar tie in wrestling is a fundermental skill and sets up aot of takedowns
When a good striker meets a good grappler, who is going to win? If we have answer for that then we won't need "cross training". The arm wrap is similiar to over hook. With arm wrap you can have 2 points control on your opponent's arm, it's better than over hook. Many throws can be executed from that arm wrap.
Actually YKW most of my favorite and highest percentage takedowns come from a single collar tie. (uchi mata, inside hook trip, forward sickle trip, flying scissor, rolling kneebar) and it's a wonderful setup for the over-the-back belt grip. Admittedly that's not in MMA, but still. And I'd say that the only reason the grappler usually beats the striker is that most systems operate on the assumption that the fight will be standing. Grapplers have to train to change this and strikers don't need to train to keep it that way. Unfortunately in MMA and actual fights this perception isn't accurate, so many striking systems are left with a huge opening which grappling styles more than adequately prepare their proponents to exploit.
