I hope it does not end up twice, but it seems it didn't post correctly. It's not the first time it happens, and we'd seem to have a certain clash of POVs between the US and "perfid Albion"; maybe for geographical reasons, I'm usually more in ole Britannia's side, but I'm asking for some time of your thoughts: I'd say that WKSA, bred in the US, leans more to its POV than a European one. That discipline and respect are more 'external' there, more a matter of _what_ things you do ("rituals"?), while here they're more a matter of _how_ you do whatever it is you're currently doing. Two examples: recent thread on greeting KJN Harmon and another: would you prefer "Yes, sir" or "Thank you"? Also, to a certain extent, it's logical that WKSA behaves that way. It is, however, a bit of at odds with the idea that we are are "professional schools". If we are providing, shouldn't the schools adapt to students instead of students to schools? I think I had something else "posted", but I can't recall. Sorry. Any comments?
First ~ I'm grateful to train with the Instructors that I have. They all have different styles of teaching and I learn from them all. I could tell you a good deal about different Instructors I have trained with and things that I have learned from them. Second ~ I'm not an expert on KSW etiquette, so I will comment from my experience thus far and from my personal feelings on the subject. My answer to the question would be yes and no. Yes you have to adapt some to the students, especially with adults. However also No, you should maintain etiquette in tradition but not in tyranny, and teach the ways of Kuk Sool etc..I hope that makes sense. (I'm not gifted with eloquence.) That being said. It would be very difficult for me to train under someone who can't see that I am very much their peer outside of Kuk Sool. When I walk out that door, I'm not defined by my belt rank.
as soon as it reaches the point of being a clash it goes too far. So long as we are sharing ideas, and actively trying to find out the "whys" out of curiosity and a genuine desire to further either yourself as a martial artist, or KSW in general, we should be good. Given that I have no link to any countries outside of the Americas, I don't really see how it matters. My Kuk Sool World revolves arround my dojang, and until I move to the UK, I'm going to do my best to blind myself to politics, style differences, etc. Its topics like "opposite sided" that should command most of our attention, since it is an important topic, and can be engaged in equally by all sides, and may not have a single right answer.
I can't quite follow what you are trying to say, my hang up could be that I am not sure what you mean by "external" respect. Your example isn't helpful (to me personally) as I don't have the actual KJN Harmon discussion in my memory. Could you elaborate on what you mean? I may be getting hung up on the use of the word "clash", to me that implies a heated/shouting disagreement. The only recent one I can recall dealt with the BB class doing pushups.
By all means, I agree. I feel we should try to keep the politics out of the threads as much as possible and maintain focus on the technical aspects of the art.
I was thinking more in terms of social dynamics than politics. Precisely because we are in the same boat (sorry, non WKSA people), I think it's being aware of our differences that would allow us to avoid certain levels of misunderstanding.
Again, what do you mean by social dynamics? What are the Brits doing differently from the Americans? Ferran, as someone who is not one of the above nationalities, your thoughts on this issue would lend an untainted perspective. I would be interested to know what an outsider's opinion is in this matter.
First, don't overestimate my perspective. Catalan [NW-Spain, sort of] society is probably much closer (and historicaly so) to British than to American (the rest of us is French ); remember Dr. Maturin, in O'Brian's novels? Now, what I see is that the definition for 'respect' is quite different, from side to side. Remember the ruckus with Ms. Harmon (jr) and her threesome (golf, people; golf)? Innuendo is far more common this side of the ocean, I'd say. Also, this last thread on push-ups as punishment has heard most of its cries from Britain. Even US'ers that didn't quite agree where much more understanding than their European counterparts, who were, mostly, quite enraged. Now, I _believe_ it's a matter of preference. For whatever reason, it would seem that US idea of etiquette is more formal, more based on doing certain movements, saying certain words, than British. Maybe, in one sentence, an American shows respect with words, a Briton with silence. I don't know, really, but I'd guess I'm not alone, and maybe if we put our differences in the open we can avoid further misunderstandings that, really, don't teach us much and cost lots of time.
I like your perspective. I think some, but not all, misunderstandings teach us a lot. Most of importantly being open the lines of communication, which are you wisely propositioning.
Not sure I wholly agree with this. Sometimes gratitude (respect) can be silent. Think: Salute to the National Flag. Maybe in the USA etiquette is more formal because there are more higher ranking people tied closer to the roots of KSW, more traditional. Maybe in Europe we are seeing the future of KSW, when the entire association if further away from the roots, when the Grandmaster isn't a Korean born, when the people running the organization aren't the people who formed it. It shouldn't take a master to recognise that each person has their own strengths. Any business owner, MA or the grocer, would not be acting in his own best interest to not respect the customer. Some people seem to think that respect is only supposed to flow from the lower ranking to the higher ranking. What I see is that the higher ranking respect flows first, and the lower ranking is taught to follow that. True, the rules are different, but the respect still flows both ways. On another list, we've been talking about different attitudes toward religion in the USA and elsewhere. Some people think that disestablishmentarianism leads the USA to more extreme attitudes toward religion, either positively or negatively. Maybe something else leads people in the USA that way, and it is that same something that leads Kuk Soolin in the USA to more exteme views about what is acceptable etiquette. I'd rather go with the "closer to traditional Korean culture" theory though.
That's not the 'silent' I had in mind: actions also speak. Let me set aside for a moment my principle of not mixing other MAs and talk about my Iai/Ken jutsu school. I study an old school (about to be 5 centuries old), Tatsumi ryu. You know all that about bowing to your swords, swords being most noble and all? We do not salute ours, not while doing Tatsumi (we might switch to Seitei [National Federation], and bow then, though). This does not mean we do not respect our swords, rather that respect is something intimate that does not require constant reminders when it's after all, a sword that (back then) you were carrying from dawn till dusk. So, bowing to a sword, a flag... is not (quite) "silent". More so than bowing _and_ saying something, but it still is something you're doing apropos, not something ingrained in you day-to-day. When you talk to someone and you show respect, it might be "silent" and genuine if you're 'embedding' your respect in your conversation, your body language, your tone, more so (from my POV) than if you insert a "sir" here and there.
a pretty good interpritation of european's, it's more to do with how you treat people, while talking to them than what you say. more about subtle (sp?) body langauge than straight up words. here's an example, no-one in europe would call their parents "sir" or "ma'm", to informal, to harsh, for our cultural mindset. but in the usa you do, and see no such harshness or informallity.
I worry that there are some large generalizations here from such a small sample. While I might have disagreed with hwarang cl's choice and might have asked him about it after class, I didn't post that opinion because I didn't feel the need to dogpile further on that thread. So how might have my "silence" have been interpreted on that thread? That I didn't see what all the hubub was about? That I agreed with a particular side? I would also agree with Bahng Uh Ki that much of the formality comes from the stronger Korean ties in the U.S. In addition to Kuk Sool I have also taken Hapkido at a school where the grandmaster and all the instructors were from Korea. The formalities were almost identical to my Kuk Sool Won school with a Korean master. Before that I took TKD where all the instructors were hispanic. We bowed in, we said "sir" to the black belts, but overall it was a very relaxed atmosphere where respect was gladly given to everyone by everyone who acted appropriately.(by the way, despite the more formal feel of my truly Korean schools, I still have this same feeling) I would also add that addressing people as "sir" or "ma'am" is also a courtesy that can be very regional. My mother-in-law from the midwest finds it rude to address family this way because where she was from kids only said that when they wanted to sound "uppity" to their parents. I'm from Texas and in the south "sir" and "ma'am" are considered by many to be hallmarks of respect and courtesy. This would of course lend itself naturally to the formalities of Korean culture. And don't forget, most Kuk Sool Won schools are in Texas. I personally don't ask my child to address me as sir because I find it too formal, however I will expect it when he is addressing adults he does not have a personal relationship with. These are themselves generalizations based upon my own perspective. In addition I do pay very close attention to body language and I also personally enjoy british wit and humor so perhaps I'm less likely to take offense from that writing style. I think the most important thing to remember is that it is very easy to misinterpret someone's intent based upon a two sentence blurb on an internet message board, regardless of the varied nationalities. As such, the words themselves are all some people have to go with when trying to determine someone's intentions. This invariably leads to miscommunication.
I was reading a booklet on understanding English in the Philippines, and it talks about the difference between high context and low context cultures. The US, being a young country, and a veritable melting pot, has not had the time nor the opportunity to develop in its language a great deal of subtext to its speech and body language. A place like the Philippines is semi-isolated, and has remained a great deal of culture form a long time ago, so that even with the great use of English, it is very difficult for an American to communicate with the locals. A lot of the communication in such high context cultures comes form body language and other clues that do not exist in America, and I presume that a similar situation may be the case in England, even if it is not to the extent of the Philippines.
I wouldnt say that the US is more "external" than the UK. I think it greatly depends on WHO your instructor is. Some heavly teach, or maybe preach is the better word, etiquette, While others say its upto the individual to understand and enforce their own etiquette upon themselves. From what Ive seen of the UKer's, atleast the ones Ive met, all had great etiquette. I think we should define what etiquette is, in our own POV. Because different people view etiquette differently. Then we can compare.
That you were not as angered as the people in Britain. I did say that even people who didn't agree had not found it as upsetting as Brittons. Yes, sure. My point is, though, that such miscommunications, in this forum, when talking about manners, tend to be split on a US/UK basis. If we become more aware of when they happen and why, we might be better at avoiding them. I think it's the difference between knowing that guns can shoot unintendedly and learning safety rules. Since we are 'at the range' [the forum], we cannot completely avoid a loaded gun, now and then, so we better learn what to expect and how to cope. I quite agree there, but I did not want to set a confrontation mood, Old-Europe vs. Young-America.
Sorry, dind't see there was already a second page. Ok, I agree. And your definition is? [For now, I'll stand by my own, altough it was just a starting work-hypothesis]
