'lo to all of the Choi students on MAP. If you study CKD, please post here. Name, school and grade'll do, but any other details are welcome. It'd be nice to know who actually does CKD on MAP and whereabouts we all are. To start out, I'm Jimmy B, first dan AI, training in Surrey in the UK. Used to train under Nigel Brophy, but due to time problems I'm now training under Tony Doney. Hoping (big hope) to get my full instructor's license this year.
Dale Miller Used to own Neath and Penarth CKD schools but passed them on to other instructors. Opening the first CKD class in Bristol in Jan 04 3rd Dan and Examiner. Trained under David Lewis 3rd Dan, Jamie Treharne 2nd Dan (Bus should have done his 3rd dan years before he left 9;-) ) and also Peter Wake 4th Dan. Hoping to do my 4th Dan this summer...
Hi All, I'm Christine from Aberdeenshire. I've just graded to Gold Belt. My Husband Alan - (the Haggishunter) and my wee boy TJ are both Orange belts. My wee girl plays at white belt (but she really wants a pink one!) We train in Alford mostly under Debz Rafferty but also attend classes with Robin Rafferty, Violet Mackie and Brian Jay on Occassion. TTFN
Name - Paul Jones CKD School - Cardiff, WALES Grade - Il dan, brown tag. Chief Instructor. Started in Cardiff under instructor Jamie Treharne - top CKD'ist, one of the best in the world.
Hey, Im Michelle Simon, Green belt in CKD, trained in birmingham then moved where there were no clubs so took up TKD. Both very cool!
Name - Captain Moo Moo ;-) CKD School - trained at Wembley CKD School, and then taught at Neasden CKD (UK) Rank - 2nd Dan, Green stripe Now am 2nd Dan WTF Taekwondo and teach at Neasden Taekwondo School
Hello to all CKD peeps, i've just joined this site and i'd like to take this time out to write about my experiences in CKD. I started CKD just under 10 years ago in Birmingham at the age of 12 after being bullied at school. My instructor then was Mr Martin Harvey. Quickly showing that I was serious about training and the class having a distinct lack of children I trained with the adults. At 15 I was made an Assistant Instructor at the rank of brown/2 black tags. I also was part of the 1st UK demo team that went to atlanta in 1997 for the 10- year anniversary. Just before my 16th birthday I gained 1st Dan. Shortly after, the Birmingham CKD Instructors decided to be part of the Dynamic Self Defence split so I became a DSD 2nd Dan at 18. At 19 I took over the class from Martin after being awarded Chief Instructorship. About 12 months ago, after teaching for 2 years I had to take time out to concentrate on university studies and unfortunately I had no-one suitiable who could take over my class. Being a third generation UKCA student and not an instructor at the time of the DSD split I had no choice but to go with DSD and my views - pro DSD or anti DSD would not have been considered at that time. Keeping an open mind, and not having trained for 6 months, I was itching to train, so I decided to enquire about training with the relatively new CKD school only 5 miles away from where I live. When I got there I felt it was only fair to wear my CKD 1st Dan and my Blue Demo Team suit as it would represent my rank when I left CKD. When I got there I found that an ex DSD member (who incidently was Bo-Dan and assistant instructor when he left DSD) had joined this class, I found this pleasing to a degree because his instructor had left DSD prior to that. But he was wearing a white belt. Considering i'd been away from CKD for around 5 years I was surprised how the commands and korean came flooding back to me. I found the Instructors to be very polite and accommodating but at the same time a little 'short sighted'. After all, DSD techniques are essentially no different to CKD techniques and I was somewhat offended when they were correcting my rear inward punch! I told them exactly my story before hand and they treated me like I was a sixteen year old again. All I wanted to do was train with them so I could keep my hand in. I was also appalled that a DSD black belt would be considered a beginner in CKD. This person has made a decision to be part of CKD, they deserve at least to be recognised as a proficient martial artist. My point is, what if my Instructor has gone with CKD? He was Deputy Technical Officer for UKCA and the three Birmingham Instructors have always graded me. This wouldn't have been changed if they'd kept in CKD so therefore I suggest that I am the same standard as i would have been as a CKD 2nd Dan CI, and this student is the same standard as a CKD Brown Senior AI (i know there is no bo-dan anymore). I was also told that I needed to get a new do-bok straight away and become a member there and then. They also said they needed to talk to Nigel Brophy to see if I was allowed back into CKD. All i wanted was to train, I would have thought having someone with over 9 years experience at the time was an asset to the class. I feel there shouldnt be any bad feeling between CKD and DSD members, especially ones who had no choice because they had to travel 35 miles to the nearest CKD school. I dont remember these instructors from my early days in CKD and they didn't seem to know who I was. If the instructors are cross-certified then that would explain this. I do not believe the general CKD technique has changed in 5 years, the syllabus might have changed but the techniques will have not. Feel free to correct me, and thanks for listening Chris Yates
Hi Chris I think i discussed this a little with you a few months back. But im happy to do it again. 1. You are a 2nd Dan. You tested and past that grading. I cannot see any reason for you to not be able to wear that in class and I cant see any reason for you not to be allowed to cross back from DSD to CKD. You didnt have any choice in staying with CKD at the time due to your circumstances, so I cant see why you cant come back now. 2. You would need to do a conversion course to come from DSD to CKD and be aChief Instructor. The syllabus has changed and so have a few techniques since you left. But you should find it easier than others to get through this, because as you rightly say, DSD is basically an organisation teaching CKD techniques. I cannot see any reason for the AI certificate to be revoked though. 3. Could be overstepping my mark here, but you have no need to ask Mr Brophy for permission to join CKD. He is in charge of converting people over, but any CKD instructor with enough experience can do that. You can just as easily come see some of the Welsh instructors, talk to some of the London instructors etc. Or if you wanted to, you could deal with CKDMAI directly if you wanted to come back to CKD. At the end of the day all the Birmingham people have to do is contact CKDMAI directly and have you placed on their register as a student. If you really want to come back then message me and I will see what I can do. 4. There may be some bad blood between one or two instructors within DSD and CKD. But the majority of instructors these days havent got a problem with DSD students. Some CKD instructors and DSD instructors may be a bit bitter and resentfull about the split in 1997. I wasnt there so I cannot comment, but some of the seniors from both sides were not happy because of that split. That split did some serious damage to the UKCA, and took a lot of hard work to get us back on track again. By the way. I remember Mr Harvey in the 1996 seminar with GMC. I was with my instructor Jamie Treharne and he decided it would be fun to make some sheep jokes. If i remember rightly he said we should have a sheep and not a dragon on our flag. Amazing what you can remember from years ago isnt it? Please pass on my regards to him when you next see him or contact him. He was a great guy with a good sense of humor. Im opening a school in Bristol very soon. Looks to be on the 19th of January. Your more than welcome to come down and train whenever you like. I can assure you that you will have a warmer welcome than you have recieved so far Pil Sung Dale Miller
Again, I thank you for your generous offer, I did speak to you via e-mail after posting a comment on master p's website about roger koo. I realise that there are some Instructors who would have been more than happy to have me as a part of their class and I am glad that is the case. I just felt I should write my feelings for all to see in a neutral place so that people can judge for themselves. Essentially, I believe in the DSD's way of thought, and I stand by CKD's techniques so I would have had a very hard choice if it was mine to make. However, I am therefore stuck in between a rock and a hard place now I have given up tecahing and I face a similar dilemma. Thanks again for your comment. Chris
Well im sure if you ever just wanted to come back to train you would be more than welcome. You wouldnt have to teach if you didnt want too! Like i said. You would be welcome to come back at any time in my opinion.
The first dan, yes, it is definitely your right to wear that. However the demo team suit, and not meaning to cause offense, but you are no longer part of the demo team from what you've said. If I gave up being an AI, I wouldn't expect to wear anything other than the standard white students suit. Yes, I can understand it might be annoying, but unless you are in the demo team, there's no reason for you to wear the suit. If they corrected your punch, then there was a reason. Five years is a long time to be out of the art, and no matter how well you think you may remember the techniques, or how similar you may think the techniques in DSD and CKD are, if an instructor corrects you on a technique then being irritated is the worst possible response. Better would be to ask them why they want you to do it that way, but not take offense at it. The reason that they wanted to talk to Nigel Brophy was not because they needed his 'permission' as it were, in fact you'll probably find its because the Birmingham crew are fairly new instructors, trained by Nigel, who had not encountered your situation before, and simply wanted to find out what the conversion would be. That grading was under DSD, not CKD. The split was rather dramatic, and fairly bitter, and due to politics (hate it, but it exists unfortunately) any rank attained in DSD will not be recognised in CKD until it is graded for under CKD. There have been changes, I could give you several examples offhand. Front kick is one, although the basic techniques themselves haven't changed, there are aspects in the way they are performed (and particularly how they are taught) that do differ from those done five years ago. Remember that CKD is designed as an evolving art. Then ask for a conversion course. There are differences, and there have been changes. In fact from what I remember part of the reason for the split was that the DSD instructors disagreed with changes being introduced at the time. Either way though, good to have you back with us. Hope to meet up with you sometime.
If I was attending any MA class for the first time unannounced I would turn up with a white suit and a white belt (or t-shirt and trackie troos if acceptable). This would be even if it was a MA I had a BB in previously, but that I had had a number of years break from. Its a kind of unwritten law for those of us from a TMA background. After talking to the new intructor, if they would agree to me wearing my BB fine. I know CKD allows you to convert previous BB MA grades. You are given provisional brown senior grade until you re-grade under the CKD syllabus. Those that do not wish to convert can choose to start at white belt and go through the entire belt system again, its a mater of individual choice. The reason for asking you to join on the spot or before training might be related to you needing MA insurance cover. It can be a big issue with some clubs these days. Though most CKD schools ought to at least give you a couple of sessions grace to see if you like the class before asking. May be you put their noses out of joint by wearing your suit and belt before asking if it was OK?
Maybe this is the case now that I think about it, but I used the demo team suit because it is blue and the previous assistant instructor uniform was white with black trousers (and bottom trim for 1st dans and above). I felt it would be more like the modern way assistants look. I also would have accepted any CKD student into my class along with their appropriate grade level. I do not believe GMC would do anything more than tweak a few techniques after 10 years. And I have no problem with criticism, but i would have thought the first lesson would have been geared to entice me back to CKD. Remember the 2nd rule of martial arts teaching is to ensure the student knows you are giving him/her what they want. I know we could talk about this all year without coming to a conclusion becuase this is a double losing battle, and i'm not going to repeat myself. I spent a good few classes in Ealing with Peter Wake just before CI meetings, if the unfortunate hadn't happened I would have been over to CKD as soon as I could because there was a man who understood how these techniques worked. His philosophy as I saw it a long while ago was that although there is a basic structure for CKD techniques, once you get past the beginner course (to 1st Dan), then things change to adapt to your own size, weight, build, height, flexibility. My point is, once you learn the techniques you have to re-learn them to really suit you. This has been my philosophy ever since. So my answer to the quote is that maybe they shouldnt have corrected my inward punch until they saw it on a focus mitt, or a shield, or even during defence drills. but the grading was also only 12 months after the split and by three of the most senior instructors that were partof the old UKCA. Martin Harvey - 3rd Dan gained in 1996, Bob Hawkesford 3rd Dan also gained in 1996 and Peter Jagger 3rd Dan gained in 1998 When we went to CKDMAI HQ in 1997 for the 10 years anniversry it was then suggested by Parviz Nikhoo about the rebate scheme. The instructors involved in the DSD split (again i stress I was not a part of) decided to go against this scheme when it was introduced in the UK. They also were against the extra gradings as they believed it was a ploy to make more money. They also believed that CKD should have introduced provisions for more close range work including groundwork. The split never happened because of changes in the actual TECHNIQUES. Again, thankyou for reading. Chris
Peter was a great guy. One of the main reasons CKD is still strong in the UK after that 97 split. Got my CI and Examiner under him and he taught some great lessons. Was an inspiration and a good example of how people should be in the dojang and in life. I can honestly say, if he left with Gideon in 1997, there would be no CKD in wales right now. And if he hadnt passed away when he had we would be in a far stronger position in the UK now. Took us years to get over his death and get back up to speed in the UK.
Might be wrong here. But i remember Peter mentioning that some of the people who broke off to DSD in Birmingham werent as opposed to the changes as Gideon and Henry. And they left because they didnt feel they would get much support or somehting like that from the UKCA. Cant remember who it was though. And as for DSD people coming back to CKD. I dont think that there is a ban on them coming over. I think that only 1 or 2 people wouldnt be welcome back. But then I cant see them ever wanting to come back either.
Now all I can think about is those damn super hot BBQ chicken wings!!! Teach me to talk about Peter wont it!
I sincerely doubt that you kept up your teaching insurance in CKD during your five year absence, though it may be the case that you did. However after five years absence returning as an assistant instructor is a little irrespectful to the instructor of the class, particualarly if you didn't speak to them beforehand. It was still after the split. Unless they filed the paperwork for the grading with the HQ in Atlanta, there is no reason that they should recognise the qualification. Its unfortunate, but true. Of course there isn't, they should be treated just like anyone else coming from a different style.
All sounds a little bit 'jobs worth' to me. The wasy I see it is that it was either no dobok, full blue CKD dobok, full black DSD dobok, or full 1998 assistant CKD dobok because all of the white trousers in our house are either in plastic bags with brand new uniforms (which incidently say DSD on them) or have an extremely large amount of shoe polish on them. For a club that (in my view quite rightly) insists full do-bok i decided for blue. One you get a PGCE then you are a tecaher..... no-one can take that away from you (apart from the law if you are expelled from teaching for one reason or another). I was a CKD assistant, it was never revoked so I believe I have the right to wear what I thought was the most correct attire for that situation. I hope that after acepting traditional martial artists into the organistaion the DSD rank should be accepted by CKD. This for me now is a dead issue and I will not speak anymore of it. I dont want to be drawn into an argument with anyone about what suit I should wear or what grade I should be because I dont care . I have now spent 5 years in each association. Let me add fuel to the proverbial fire by now changing the topic of converstaion (if I may). With all respect, people can say allsorts about CKD having changed in 5 years, my view will not change. DSD is CKD with extra bits to compliment the style. It has been said that GMC has made his martial art more 'health aware' and as far as I can see that is a good thing for CKD. I cannot see the techniques changing any futher than a slight extra twist here and a tuck there. Please, somebody prove me wrong. Chris
Chris Since you have left there have been refinements to a few techniques, but nothing amazingly different. The syllabus has changed as you know, but for the better in my opinion. Other older instructors who have since left may not agree though. But were all allowed to have different opinions arent we. From what I can see, from the web site and talking to some DSD instructors, DSD seems to be using a CKD syllabus from 1997 or before. The techniques are pretty much the same, although you may not use all the same punches and kicks that we teach up to black belt now. What I remember of the pre 97 syllabus was there were no heel kicks, downward kicks, elbows, knees, round palm strikes and a few other techniques in the colour syllabus. They were introduced after black belt. But they are taught before black now in CKD. That and the patterns are changed and there are now about a million speed drills Not something that should take you too long to learn though. As for a point made by little bunny rabitt. The insurance is a null point. If he has a certificate in CKD as an AI, then he can get insurance through any club. The only reason for him not to be able too is if GMC had a problem with him returning. I have had AI from 10 years ago come back training in CKD with me with no probs with the states. I have also had my old instructors come back a few times. They had no problems either. In fact they were welcomed back by HQ. Chris, if you are up front with the CKD instructors and say that you only have non regular CKD uniform or DSD one, they should have no problems with you wearing your old suit for a little while. Check out the CKD website and the Kansas Seminar. There are instructors from other arts there who joined months ago, and their pictured now with GMC in non CKD doboks. So i cant see any reason for you not to either be able to wear your old CKD, or old DSD dobok, until your status was sorted out. And this may stir up a bit of controversy with some CKD practitioners, but i dont care really. As far as im concerend, I would rather see someone from DSD or another CKD hybrid retain their rank when they convert back to CKD than see someone who has done TKD for years come in at a high Dan rank after converting. Dont get me wrong. I have nothing against other arts converting over, but someone who has done a CKD hybrid would grasp the techniques and qould integrate into CKD far more efficiently. Please dont anyone think that im knocking anyone from another TMA joining CKD here. My best instructors come from another art to CKD and I feel they have a lot to offer. Im just voicing an opinion that someone from a Hybrid would "Get It" a lot quicker than someone from a different style. So if your from a CKD hybrid, it should be even easier to convert back, if you have not done anything to annoy the organisation. Thats my opinion anyway. Im probably going to get a call from Master P at 4 am now to chastise me LOL Only joking. I know he has no problem with Most DSD people coming back over. He called Catherine Hall a while back!
