cimande vs serak

Discussion in 'Silat' started by wt77, Jun 17, 2004.

  1. wt77

    wt77 New Member

    i learn i little bit of cimande and i heard a lot about serak, some people says that serak cames from cimande other that not?? who knows more about that, differences between styles????
    i wanna know the opinion of people who train in both or who knows about it
    thanks anyway
  2. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Depends on who you ask - to my knowledge, there is no definitive proof of anything either way. Just verbal histories, speculation, and faith.

  3. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    As Mike said, the answer depends on whom you ask. In our branch of Sera, we have always believed there was a solid connection between the two arts; we've just never been sure exactly what the connection *was*.

    Since Tjimande (Cimande) is generally acknowledged as the older and more widely practiced system, and since they both came from West Java, which isn't all that big a place, it would make sense that there might be some crossover.

    At the least, Sera would have had to acknowledge Tjimande -- if you knew you were apt to run into players who knew the older art, it would be wise to have come up with some responses for it. So, it might be that Sera was devised as an answer to Tjimande.

    Just as possible, though, is that the creator(s) of Sera had some training in the older system, and took elements of it to use. A lot of the moves don't look all that different.

    It is possible that Sera was some kind of offshoot of Tjimande; unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any proof, yea or nay, no matter what some people might contend. Certainly he changes are enough so that it is certainly a distinctly different art today than most of what you see as Cimande.

  4. Ular Sawa

    Ular Sawa Valued Member

    You certainly asked a contentious question. There is material on
    different Silat sites that will provide answers. If you search
    it out (Google), you'll find it.

    Some people have put a sincere effort into researching this question while
    others have changed the history of their art several times over the years.

    I personally believe it is more important to promote the positive aspects of the practice of the Indonesian arts than to argue about history. The Indonesian Martial Arts community has been divided too long over these types of issues.
  5. silatliam

    silatliam Valued Member

    Hi Ular Sawa
    I hope the understanding of Cimande and sawa I was given might help you. Embah Kahir was the founder of Cimande. Before his finish product the Cimande, he actually develop 3 other systems, Sera being one of them. He taught this system for a number of years, before developing Cimande. So maybe a number of the students he taught during his "Sera" stage might have went on to develop this particular art more. On our website there is an article "The lost art of Original Sera" by Pendekar Sanders. He also teach this original style of Sera which has 5 Jurus which have in turn 8 movement (techniques) so in total 40 movements or applications. Hope this maybe help a little
  6. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    There is indeed much disagreement on this point. Pendekar Sanders and I have had some lengthy discussions via email about the origins of Sera, particularly the role of Mas Djut. The talks have been civilized, and neither of us have convinced the other of our positions.

    We have agreed to disagree, no hard feelings.

    Suffice it to say that those of us in the U.S who actually practice what we call Sera(k) don't agree with Pendekar Sanders on this issue. (Some of us don't agree with each other ...) However, since it is our art, we (naturally) think our histories, even when they don't alway match exactly, are more accurate than his. He has his sources, we have ours, and we like ours better.

    People viewing this discussion from without need to know that there is more than one viewpoint -- after that, they can make up their own minds.

    At the bottom, that doesn't really matter, because however it got here, Sera certainly is different in both execution and philosophy, and we feel that our art can stand on the same platform as Cimande as an equal, vis a vis how effective it is, when push comes to shove ...

  7. Ular Sawa

    Ular Sawa Valued Member

    Hi Guru Liam,

    Actually I'm pretty clear on the history having read it before. I've visited your site numerous times and lamented that I don't have the time or resources to visit your fine country and train with your group, at least right now anyway. It's good to see you posting here. Selamat.
  8. silatliam

    silatliam Valued Member

    Hi Steve and Ular Sawa
    Hope you are well, many thanks for your reply. Yes there is many views on these subjects and many misunderstandings. The main thing is that we love our art and as long as we pass on this to our students and teach them to become good strong warriors with respect and decency for other's that all that matters in the end. Each Teacher alwayes add his mark to the system, we have to make the system effective and to give good benefits to all who enter a silat class. I think for far to long politics and egos have seem to keep silat brothers and sisters apart. Anyway if we all were the same life would be boring. Take care and best wishes to you guys in the US. We will have a couple of new articles appearing soon on the website which should prove to be interesting and thought provoking for readers.
  9. jkdKNIFER

    jkdKNIFER New Member

    silat serak is by far the most supreme of all fighting arts, i know, beacuse i have seen bukti negara, and its extremely hard to beat, especially if they are a veteran player... :eek:
  10. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Sera's Effectiveness

    Well, we like Sera, but I don't know that judging it by Bukti means anything about how effective the art is. Bukti Negara is Pendekar Paul de Thouars' personal art, designed for, as the old joke goes, old people, cripples, and Americans. Bukti has roots in Sera, but it's not the whole tree.

    My guru no longer teaches Bukti, but when I began training, he still did, and I managed to get five of the eight djurus and sambuts along. Doesn't make me an expert, but I did learn enough to see that there were (and are) big differences in the two arts.

  11. masterfinger

    masterfinger New Member

    In my studies of Sera Serak, I read that Serak founder Pak Sera studied 9 different systems and became proficient in 3 before developing Serak. Would it be wrong to guess that one of the arts he studied was more than likely Cimande, in which parts of the system were integrated?
  12. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    I think you could make a case that serious fighters who were studying silat in West Java back in the day, especially those training in more than one style, would quickly run into Tjimande -- since it was the most common one around.

    There is some evidence that Sera existed separate from Tjimande when the later art spread to the areas south of Bogor. This comes from Dr. Ian Wilson's, whose doctoral thesis (Pencak Silat: The Politics of Inner Power) indicates that Sera was a separate art, found in the exact region in which the de Vries claim they had a family plantation, and it was there when Tjimande showed up. While this doesn't give us the gimpy Bapak Sera per se, nor tell us from whence Sera came or what he studied, it does validate at least part of the family history: Somebody was teaching something called "Sera," in the right place and at the right time, and however much it stole from Tjimande -- and that was probably a lot -- Sera does not seem to have sprung full-blown from the head of Abah Kahir.

    The monkey art of which Pendekar Sanders speaks of as Sera looks nothing like what the de Vries/de Thouars clans teach. If the monkey-version of Sera is being taught today, it is so far removed from us that I can't see any connections.

    It's as much alike as sumo wrestling is like ballet. Both involve moment, and that's about it ...

    Could Sera be an offshoot of Tjimande? Sure. Can anybody show that it is?

    No. I'd love to see it, but so far, nobody has come forth with verifiable proof, and at this late remove, I don't think it is likely. And even if it did come from the older art, Sera surely isn't the same, and hasn't been for at least five generations of teachers.


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