Chung Do Kwan

I am going to visit a school that teaches this style (which I have learned is Tae Kwon Do). I am not sure what to think, since I was told by the Sifu on the phone that it is a combination of martial arts, and not separated into styles (karate, tae kwon do, kenpo, etc). As a white belt, they learn karate techniques, then each belt focuses on a different style. When they reach blue or green, they then start with tae kwon do. They do have some MMA trainers for sports, but he insists that it is separate from the chung do kwan classes.

I have a traditional karate background. Not sure if this is what I'm looking for, but I want to check out all possibilities in this area.

Advice, opinions, please?

 

I'd check it out and see if the advanced students have skills that you want. What are your goals for training? Off the top of my head, it seems a little silly to need some sort of belt to learn new techniques. In my experience, the difference between a great martial artist and a terrible martial artist is simply a refining of their basics, not, yknow, reaching level 12 and deciding to dual class.

 

Chung Do Kwan is the first of the original 9 Kwans of TKD, Old School Chung Do Kwan is alot like Shotokan even in the palgwe forms before the new taeguek forms were incorporated. Ive never heard of that Kwan being separated into different styles for each belt, might be something that particular school does.

 

Chung Do Kwan was the first martial art that I trained in, for which I hold a 1st Dan BB. The school I trained with had direct tyes with Grandmaster Hyun Ok Shin, who was a student of Won Kuk Lee, the founder of Chung Do Kwan.

From what you're describing, that is not CDK. CDK is essentially Shotokan Karate with some changes in stances and techniques (for instance higher kicks with more hip action). The forms are taken from the old Kata of Shotokan, and some Hyeong from the ITF, sometimes even taking WTF forms (palgwe and/or poomsae). The old Kwans are quite rare since the South Korean Gov. rolled all the kwans up into the Kukkiwon and set their eyes on the Olympics.

I don't want to judge a school that I don't know, but I think that they are just using the name CDK, and aren't actually associated to any existing CDK lineages. This doesn't automatically mean that the school is rubbish, but it does mean that they are "borrowing" the name, and could potentially be a red flag that this club is of the McDojang variety.

Check it out, it may actually be a good club.

BTW which style of Karate did you train in?

 

It doesn't sound to be a traditional school, as they do not focus on a lot of forms from what I understand. They also have some mixed martial arts students who compete. I don't think it's what I'm looking for, but will visit their class to be sure. I have studied shudokan, with some judo and jujitsu integrated into our training.

 

Shudokan or Shidokan?
As far as I know Shudokan is a style of Aikido?

EDIT: Turns out there's Shudokan Karate too. Carry on.

 

Sooo many kans. Shudokan, Shidokan, Shotokan, Yoshinkan, Bujinkan, Kodokan. Can't we all just fight in peace

 

Technically & off point, but I believe the Song Moo Kwan may predate the CDK by about 6 months. It was reported that it opened on March 11, 1944 & the CDK may have 1st opened in September of 44.
There were also only 5 original kwans, not 9. The military Kwan (OhDoKwan) was considered 1 of the 6 early kwans (5 original + ODK), as Gen. Choi & Col. Nam were reported to have started teaching the soldiers in 1946 & 47 respectfully.
The other 3 were off shoots or annex kwans. Some consider the ODK an annex as well, but a co-founder (Gen. Choi) studied & taught karate in Japan, as did most (4) of the 5 original Kwan founders. So an official ROK Govt entity, KASA, in 1959 ruled that the ODK had to be on par with the 5 original kwans, as all of them began instruction from 1944-47.

 

Apparently the Song Moo Kwan was founded in 1944, but was shut down soon after due to lack of students. It was then reformed in 1946 and continued until unification. So what do you consider the date of founding? When it was first created even though it stopped/closed or when it opened and continued running until unification (and beyond).

http://www.karatenorth.com/articles.htm

(note: I have no dog in this fight, I don't care which was earlier as I'm Changmookwan anyway).

 

Quote: Originally Posted by TKDstudent
Technically & off point, but I believe the Song Moo Kwan may predate the CDK by about 6 months. It was reported that it opened on March 11, 1944 & the CDK may have 1st opened in September of 44.

Very good point Sir! I have read your source before. I also have no dog in this fight either!
I think the best way to answer this is that it depends, BUT one must be consistent. By that I mean, I have no problem listing them as when they 1st started to teach. But we have to realize that all 5 of the original kwans closed at some point once the Korean Civil War broke out in all out fighting. Almost everything came to a halt, including millions of lives during this bloody struggle for control over Korea. In fact 2 of the Kwan founders disappeared during the War, including the founder who started your lineage in motion. So GMs Yoon & Chun either moved to the north, were kidnapped there or killed. IN GM Yoon's case GM Kim Soo tracked down his family in NK who advised he taught MAs there for awhile. Also GM Lee Won Kuk fled to Japan to escape political persecution in 1950. So he was not on the scene either.
So I have little problem with how we define, as long as we agree or use the same criteria.
(Hope this makes sense!)

 

SIDE NOTE

As a side note I would like to add that GM RO Byung Jik was the ONLY original Kwan Founder out of the 5 that actually played a pivotal & continuous role in the unification of TKD. He was part of the early movements to unify under the Kong Soo Do & Tang Soo Do banner terms. He was an officer in the original Korean Taekwon Do Association in 1959. He accompanied Gen. Choi abroad when the General was the KTA President & succeeded him as the 4th President of the KTA, serving for a year in that capacity.
GM YOON disappeared to NK during the war, circa 1950-3
GM CHUN disappeared during the Korean War, circa 1950-3, status unknown
GM LEE fled to Japan during 1950 to escape political oppression

GM HWANG Kee largely stayed apart from the TKD unifiction process, settling for unifying under the Su Bak Do banner

So GM Ro should receive his proper due for the credit he deserves for his part in TKD's evolution, JMHO!

 

Im just going by General TKD history. Generally 9 Kwans are acknowledged . 5 Original early Kwans and the remainer being Off-shoots. Thats how I was taught. We're aware of the original Kwans and Offshoots but we acknowledge the 9 of them because its those 9 that make up TKD.

Song Moo Kwan opened on the peninsula 6 months prior to Chung Do Kwan but closed down after a few months, opened and closed down again whereas Chung Do Kwan was the First school of the original Kwans to open and be Established after Korea was liberated.

my lineage is SK/ US military Oh Do Kwan, I look at it as an annex. It was the 6th Kwan to open on the penninsula and Col. Nam was originally from Chung Do Kwan as well as most of the head instructors, So that makes Oh Do Kwan an off-shoot.

 

after thinking about it some more, and the first time I read this part I was in a rush. this seems to be some sort of martial Heresy LOL.

From what I understand, You addressed the guy as "Sifu" which mean Master/ Instructor in Chinese arts (right?). Then whole format of how they go from Karate to Kenpo......which I dont get

Why do you need to do Karate then Kenpo. Kenpo is a form of Karate and the "Karate" that they do, what form of Karate is that?

So that means that with the Karate and the Kenpo theres 2 types of concepts, footwork, body movement, technique etc. going on and from there you go into TKD which is yet another concept. Now Cross-training is cool but this formula of how they do it just seems to spell disaster. Its like they cant make up their minds what they really want to do so they

made a bad omelette and threw in some MMA into the mix to appeal to that crowd. Like they wanna cover all their bases for various types of potential students. I wouldnt even bother checking out that school IMO.

 

You now this is another good way to look at it, as there were 9 Kwans that were numbered, retired & rolled into the KKW back in 1978 when Kukki or Olympic TKD's unification efforts were completed & singed off on by the respective Kwan leaders!

Now I personally use the term original kwans to label the 1st 5 & the term early kwans to denote the 5+ the Oh Do kwan, as the KASA, an official ROK Govt entity ruled in 1959 that since Gen. Choi & Col. Nam taught KMAs in the military since 1946 & 47 respectively, as young Commissioned Officers, the gym they eventually established & called the Oh Do kwan had to be seen on equal footing as the original 5!

 

Agreed & you make a valid point. But I would also add that the CDK shut down as well, as they all did because of the war AND their Kwan Founder (GM Lee) fled to Japan to escape political oppression in 1950. So he was only in the mix for 5 short years!

There is no doubt that the majority of the 1st ODK instructors were from the CDK, as they were an important civilian gym. BUT we have to remember that Gen. Choi was not of the CDK, but trained & taught karate in Japan, so he has to be seen in the same light as the other kwan founders who also studied abroad. Plus he was teaching in the military since 1946. So I would not agree that the ODK was simply an annex of the CDK.

 

its not simply an annex but its an annex/ off-shoot by context. so depending on whose telling the story some folks will say that ODK was the 6th original Kwan. But looking at the way it was established

even with Gen. Choi's involvement its still an Off-shoot.

the training curriculum is centered around Chung Do Kwan material. granted It developed and branched off into its own but thats the purpose of an Off-shoot. Different Branch, Same Tree.

 

Again I can agree to an extent with what you state. But I think we not only have to be honest here but expand our thinking a bit more. Remember all of the kwans were basically teaching the same thing! Which was after all some basic rudimentary karate, with a bit of Chinese influence.

I would further suggest a way to look at it as:
There were 7 Koreans that went abroad & while there studied MAs. 6 of the 7 studied karate in Japan. The other 1 studied karate from a book. That 1 & another of the 7 also studied CMAs while in Manchuria. These are the 7 that 1st taught Korean karate in Korea at the 1st 6 kwans (or early kwans). When 1 of them (the JidoKwan Founder) disappeared during the Korean War, the last of the 7 (Dr. YOON) took over.
These 6 kwans were all on par, as they were led by those who learned MAs abroad, as there was virtually no MAs in Korea. They all taught basic karate at 1st & slowly developed away from those common roots in their own way & pace. Hence the Oh Do Kwan was not an annex Kwan, but an early Kwan. The remaining Kwans that would eventually open were ALL opened by students of these 6 early kwans. Those are the annex, off shoots or sub-kwans!

 

I get that but how can ODK not be an annex when it was established by folks who come from CDK. While it is all based in Karate and some other influence there are some differing methods.

Korean Police TKD for instance is rooted in CDK and they have differing methods from Military ODK TKD. Oh Do Kwan came after the first 5. you could call it an original Kwan thats why I said it depends on who is telling the story where its 5 or 6.

whether its 5 or 6 though since ODK was established by many prior CDK artists that would make it an off-shoot even with the contributions of Gen. Choi. Its considered a Military off-shoot/ annex.

But I guess that since ITF is rooted in ODK then its not looked at as being an annex.

 

I am not sure why you say the ODK was established by folks who came from the CDK? The ODK was the vision of Gen. Choi & he came from a karate based background from Japan. If there was no Gen. Choi, there would not have been an ODK! It was he that taught Tang Su Do in the Army since 1946. It was he that selected a talented then Lt. Nam Tae Hi to teach for him on JeJu Island when Gen. Choi formed the 29th Infantry Fist Division & approved Sgt. Han Cha Kyo as the assistant instructor. It was Gen. Choi who had the power, access & influence to set up the now critically famous demonstration to commemorate the anniversary of the "Fist" Division & President Rhee's birthday, which BTW launched the whole TKD movement into orbit.

No Gen. Choi, no ODK! No Gen. Choi, no TKD! Hence the ODK was an early Kwan, not an annex or off shoot, as it was founded by a Korean karate martial artist who learned karate abroad & brought it back to Korea, JUST LIKE the other 6 Koreans did, who founded the 5 original Kwans.